Should we pray or join the fray?

This post is NOT about the current nonsense going on in the "remnant" movement even though the quotes are from a thread discussing that very thing a couple of years ago. The point I wish to make has zero to do with that. Zero to do with who is right and who is wrong in the present drama and trauma going on. (I’ve no horse in that race.)

The point is this: If you find yourself hating a group of people, or despising them, or think you are better than them, it might be a good idea to humble yourself, ask God where your own failings are, and pray for those you despise or hate.

Post by Silver Pie » Sat Mar 09, 2024 5:47 am

    Farmer wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:54 pm

    Yet again another example of the mess Denver has created with the “remnant” group. 

Denver didn't create the messes. People who profess to believe what he has taught are making the messes.

    from the periphery I see constant circumstances of bickering and ungodly behavior.

When you see constant bickering and ungodly behavior, you are only seeing the people making a fuss. There are others who are quietly going about their business, doing their best to always face God, and doing their best to allow Christ to save them. To judge every person in the movement by the idiocy, sins, bickering, etc. of those causing contention isn't really a smart thing to do (yet, it is what people do, isn't it?).


Post by Silver Pie » Sat Mar 09, 2024 5:57 am

    Farmer wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:47 pm

    The arrogance, in many respects, of this group even calling themselves the remnant. I have personally evolved my thinking of what the remnant even is, let alone who they are at least a dozen times in the last 10 to 15 years and I’m still not sure my current understanding is even correct. There is a great deal of assumption and self aggrandizement going on with these various groups of people who look to Denver as their light. 

I don't call myself a remnant. I objected to the idea, in fact - but more recently, I realized they are a remnant of the LDS Church (especially if you include all the factions that claim descent from Joseph Smith Jr). I still don't call myself a remnant. I have no label for myself.

And, while some do look to Denver as their light, he preached against it profusely in the ten lectures. Some set themselves up as a light. Others listen to what Denver has to say, but use the Lord, the Heavenly Parents, and the Holy Spirit as the light they should follow.


Post by Silver Pie » Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:07 am

    Farmer wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:22 pm

    Emphatically, I state, Priesthood only comes from the heavens. 

Of course it does. The certificate is only so a man can show another fellowship or person who desires baptism/sacrament that the group he came from believes he's honorable enough to bless the sacrament and perform baptisms.

You seem really upset by a group of people who aren't, near as I can figure, causing you any pain. Instead of pointing fingers and b*ching about them, wouldn't a better use of your time be to look at yourself and see where the beams are in your own eyes, and where you might improve so that you can stand in the presence of God without fear or agony (whether in this life when he shows up, or in the next when he judges)?

Or you could pray for all the parties involved in this mess - those who are hurling insults, those who are threatening people, those who are pretending to be something they are not, and those who are the victims in all of that. That would be better than doing your part in spreading the contention on the internet - unless, of course, you get your jollies by being appalled and pointing fingers at other people's pain and anger, as you become part of the problem yourself instead of part of the solution.


Post by Silver Pie » Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:13 am

    Wolfwoman wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2024 12:46 pm

    Regarding priesthood: of course Denver believes that women can have an association with Heaven. That has been a big thing that he has taught. The thing about men having priesthood and women sustaining them in that has to do with Genesis 3:16. Due to conditions of the fall, men are to “rule” over women. This has to do with men being priests and leaders in the religious community and with them performing ordinances (law of Moses ordinances back in the day and baptism and sacrament today). He asked the Lord if women could hold priesthood and the Lord told him no. That’s not going to happen until the millennium. So he set up the system of women sustaining men in the priesthood which also harkens back to the original order of God where the mother chose who received the birthright blessing (see Isaac and Rebekah and their sons Esau and Jacob). You don’t have to believe it, but the reasoning is that he got it from the Lord himself. 

Yep. And he specified that it was "public ordinances" (like baptism and blessing the sacrament) that women weren't supposed to do.

Women can give blessings to family and friends. I know because I've done it (long before Denver showed up on the scene) and God honored that by causing the blessings to be fulfilled. Women also have a fellowship with heaven, every bit as real as any man has in his fellowship with heaven.


Post by Silver Pie » Sat Mar 09, 2024 1:21 pm

Since I haven't been coming to this site often lately and may not be back for another month, I want to clarify my last comment to Farmer (love the name by the way!). I was not trying to be accusatory toward them. My point is this: I expect we are all human . . . . Many or most of us view ourselves as followers of Christ, and from what I've seen of Farmer's posts, s/he is no exception.

As those who are following Christ - or trying to to the best of our abilities - I believe it behooves us to pray for fellow followers of Christ who are obviously struggling to be Christlike. It doesn't matter if they don't believe the faction we follow. It doesn't matter if they are "apostate" from the religion we hold dear. It doesn't matter if they are Mormon or CoJCoLDS or Catholic or Lutheran or Baptist or Holy Roller or any other label, or no label at all. It doesn't matter if we don't like the man (or woman) they believe speaks for God.

What matters is that we come to a unity of the faith, even if our doctrines and beliefs differ. Our unity should be in our prayers and concerns for each other (not in being appalled or angry because we don't like that group for whatever reason).

Also, to be clear, I view myself as scum, unworthy of the great mercy our Lord has shown to me (to all of us) - that he should have suffered in Gethsemane and died on the cross for someone as unprofitable and unworthy as me boggles my mind. It is difficult to accept this great gift he so freely gives to us. Just so you know that I'm not coming from some pretended attitude of being better than anyone here.

Who is Keeping You Out of Zion?

 I was reading the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon this morning, near the end of 1 Nephi where he is explaining some Isaiah verses. (All scripture quotes are from the last chapter of 1 Nephi. No other references are given, because we don't all necessarily use the same version of this book.)

He wrote: "All that fight against Zion shall be destroyed."

That should give us pause.

If we are angry at each other - if we, in the stubbornness of our pride, are accusing others of being the reason we are not in Zion - if we are contentious and angry and will accuse, interrupt, and cut off those who are trying to explain their points of view  - if we are doing all this and more, WE are the ones fighting against Zion. WE are among those who will be destroyed.

Let that sink into your mind and heart.

 

1.  God . . . will not suffer that the wicked shall destroy the righteous.
2. He will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come.
3. The righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire.
4. All they who fight against Zion shall be cut off.
5. For the time speedily shall come that . . . all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; 

 Versus the following:

Because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power . . . he hath no power over [their] hearts for they dwell in righteousness and the Holy One of Israel reigneth.

We should not be accusing others of doing that which we, ourselves, are doing. (When I first heard that people were essentially saying, "You are the reason we don't have Zion," my mind was blown. NO ONE is preventing YOU from having a Zion in your own mind and heart. How do you know that God has not already begun to establish a physical Zion, but you don't know about it because he won't tell you on account of you serving the devil instead of him?) 

 Have we learned nothing from the experiences of the LDS pioneers who were driven from their homes and suffered all manner of attack on their persons and homes, including the deaths of too many of them and the violation of women? Do we not comprehend how serious this path is that we have embarked on? Are we so oblivious to the power demons have over the hearts of people today that we think we won't be punished in a similar horrendous fashion if we continue in the pride of and contention in our hearts?

 Are you aware that the reason God sent Denver was not just to try to establish a people worthy of Zion, but to also warn us of our destruction if we refused to repent? Folks, this is not a game. We need to take this task of creating Zion seriously - and I suggest we begin by looking into our own hearts and, with God's help, ousting pride, fear, sacred cows, the need to always be right.

Whose side are we really on? God's side - or the Devil's? 

 

 

 

No place to be placed alone in the midst of the earth.

 Isaiah said (recorded in the Book of Mormon, and obviously the same in the Old Testament)

Wo unto them that join house to house, till there can be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!

2 Nephi 15:8 (LDS version because that's what I have on my computer).

I knew that was true because I have lived in rented apartments and in a rented condo. You hear other people's music, bathroom fans (one place I lived had them horrendously loud; they should have replaced them in the whole complex), phone conversations, room conversations, quiet singing, and I even lived in one place where I got the "joy" 🙄 of hearing the people across the wall having sex (and they were NOT noisy doing it).

Today I was looking at comments under a video entitled, "Why Every House Built After 2010 Feels Off (But You Can’t Explain Why)" (I haven't watched it yet, but probably will at some point in time) and thought of that scripture while reading this comment under it a few minutes ago:

@davel7014
2 months ago
Open floor plan used to mean that one room flowed into another room, say, by an arch or other wide opening, but they were still separate rooms. Now, open floor plan is one big open room with everything in it. I hate it. No privacy, noisy and anyone who walks in the front door can see the kitchen, which can be a mess. Builders need to stop pushing this open floor plan design 

 

 Truly, Isaiah knew what he was talking about. Don't let anyone tell you that he was not really saying "there's no place to be alone".

 

 

To give proper credit, this is the video the comment was under:

 

 

Zion

 I don't believe Zion will be an intentional community. I don't believe a group of people (led by a "moses" or not) will buy or overtake a plot of land and build Zion. I believe it will happen naturally. I believe that people will become zionlike in their own minds and hearts, then in their families. I believe it will spread to friends. I believe God will physically move like-minded people together in small groups, and that none of them will be thinking, "We are creating Zion."

I believe Nephi when he said he saw many small groups of people all over the planet, "armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory." (1 Nephi, chapter III, page 24 in the 1840 reprint of the Book of Mormon I have). I believe they may not even realize they are armed with righteousness, nor that they are armed with the power of God. I believe they may just think they are ordinary people. I believe these groups are "zion" even though they are not the official Zion built in the western hemisphere (likely "in the tops of the mountains" as recorded by Isaiah), with the temple that the Covenant Christians are waiting for the command to build. (See Denver Snuffer's most recent conference talk if you haven't heard of Covenant Christians.)

I believe God is working among all peoples, among all nations, quietly and diligently. I believe there may already be such groups of people as Nephi saw. I believe there will be more. And I think it possible that most of these groups will be unknown to most of the world (except to local people).

I think it's wrong and prideful to attempt to buy a piece of land for the express purpose of creating a Zion. All attempts I know, from two or three hundred years ago until today, have failed.

May we be humble and teachable before God, willing to do God's will even if it is as simple as learning not to be critical of others, and allowing people the freedom to be who they genuinely are, with out complaining that they are "trammeling on my rights" while being blissfully unaware that the truth is that we are trammeling on their rights.

May God bless all of us on this planet to be humble enough and teachable enough that not one of us is a danger to another person on the planet. 

Trammel - to deprive of freedom of action