Musings - What if . . . ?

What if . . .
Destruction begins in Boise, Idaho, flows down through Idaho Falls, Logan, Utah, the Centerville/Salt Lake area, through the Orem/Provo area, then stops for a season?

What if . . . 
During this period of rest, God sends out his angels to gather the beginnings of Zion?

What if . . . 
After the period of rest, destruction picks up again where it left off, going from the Ephraim, Utah area through the Cedar City area, through the St. George area to the Las Vegas, Nevada area, then continues until it reached the Phoenix, Arizona area?

What if . . .
There's another period of rest, then destruction picks up again in California, Texas, and Georgia - and continues until the overflowing scourge has encompassed all of the continental U.S. - maybe even Canada?

What if . . . 
God has a pattern he wants us to see, so that we can be forewarned and prepared?

The Lord's Coming in Glory

This is an excerpt from Denver's talk that was shared with me, and I think it is important enough to share here. I haven't listened to his talk yet. I am in the process of listening to Dan Rogers' talk, though, and would highly recommend it. It is about Christ. I have not listened to any other talks, but they are all supposed to be shared at some point by those who hosted the Boise Conference. Many thanks to them and their selfless efforts.

 I saw His return in glory and recorded what He revealed. I was lying at home in my bed when The Lord spoke to me, calling me by name. When it ended I was commanded to write an account. As I wrote, the words were given to me and I recorded the following.

 "On 13th of February, 2003, I saw the Lord coming in His glory. At first a sign appeared in the heavens, a light emanating from a single point and turning first this way and that. All the world saw it and men debated over it's meaning. At length the light turned upon us and within it was the Lord showing His glory with concourses of angels and the hosts of heaven following in his wake. And when we saw that it was the Lord we rejoiced and were filled with joy. I turned to my wife and said, "Look, it is Christ"! And she said, "yes, it is!" And we were filled with joy and peace of mind for the long awaited day of the Lord had come. But others were filled with dread. They feared and lamented and wanted the mountains to cover them and hide them from His presence for He was clothed in red and came in judgement. And Christian ministers knew they had taught falsely and that their faith could not save and they begged for relief from the saints. This caused me to marvel at how this could be. It was given unto me to understand that without the ordinances of salvation through the authorized ministers of the Gospel, it was not possible for men to shed their sins. And they could not look upon a just and holy being without being racked with torment and guilt for their sins. And they pled with the saints to minister to them but we could not for we were constrained by the Spirit and were forbidden to do so. For this was the day of judgement which the Lord had in His heart and He was now come to preach His own sermon, clothed in red and to deliver those who waited on Him and to convict and condemn those who had not. I write this with my own hand and bear solemn testimony that it is true. Amen"
When I finished recording the foregoing account, I replied to the Lord that it was not complete and that I could give a much fuller account. The Lord replied, "when the time comes to bear testimony of this, these are the words you shall use".

 And many other things were told me that cannot be written. These are the words I can use to testify of that event. Therefore this is my testimony of that visit in early in 2003.

 The first appearance of the Lord was in the 50th year of my life, an age considered suitable for more than 1000 years for a man to qualify for service in the holy order after the order of the son of God. The Lord has visited with and taught me on many occasions since then but never at my insistence. I have never controlled His appearing. My experience is that he cannot be conjured nor controlled. I can petition but he comes when he decides. The Lord has never appeared to me in a dream. I have always been awake, fully aware of my surroundings and with my senses unimpeded. When awakened during the night, sleep has always fled and following such an encounter I was always unable to return to sleep. The Lord does everything according to His higher way of teaching. By beginning with a vision of His return, He set out the foundation for understanding His course which is one eternal round. Since his first appearance, He has sent diverse angels from Adam, or Michael to Hyrum or Joseph Smith, giving line upon line to confirm my hope in Christ.

May God grant us all soft hearts and true repentance. I worry about myself, my children, my siblings, my other family members, and many friends and acquaintances, as well as all of us on planet earth. Oh, that I had the voice of an angel and that the whole world would hear and turn to Christ!

Second Coming is Real

Okay, lame title. I couldn't think of a better one.

I think the words below from a true messenger of God bears repeating. This stuff is real. Jesus is real. He is really going to come. From here on out, in the world, it will be less and less fun.

The Lord's return is always a subject He wants us to keep in mind. All the latter-day events that will mark the time for His return will happen in a single generation. (D&C 45:30; JS-M 1:34.) Therefore, when that generation begins to witness the signs of His coming, they should prepare so the return of the Master does not find them abusing others. (Matt. 24:44-51; JS-Matt. 1:49-55.)
. . . 
I am sent as another witness to testify He will return. Signs have been, and are being given both in the heavens and on earth.
. . . 
He has authorized baptism as His own covenant to preserve all who receive it. I have seen His return and I know this newly offered baptism will be respected at His return by those who will return with Him. Baptism is offered as a covenant between you and the Lord. There are no institutional demands made upon you as a result of receiving the ordinance. It is an invitation to renew your relationship with Christ and take an act of faith to show Him you keep Him in your heart.
. . . 
Every nation, kindred, tongue and people, black and white, male and female, young and old, are invited to be baptized. There is no charge, and you make no commitment to men. You only covenant to follow Christ.

He is aligning events to complete His work, and the signs of His return are being given to this generation. The time will soon come when it will not be possible to receive this invitation any longer. Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance.
denversnuffer.com/2015/12/come-unto-christ/

How long is a generation? I don't know that God counts it in years. Speaking of only one genealogical line, I had two generations in Nauvoo: Shadrach and Lorenzo Wesley Roundy. Then, there was Joel Jesse, Sarah Elizabeth, then my mother. Counting from Nauvoo, I am the 4th and 5th generation. (LW-JJ=1 JJ-SE=2 SE-Mom=3 Mom-me=4) 

How to translate that into now, I don't know, but if we take the year the "saints" were kicked out of Nauvoo and subtract it from 2015, then divide it by 4 (generations), we may come up with a general ball park number. However, the time when "it will not be possible to receive this invitation any longer" will probably be sooner than that. If the Book of Mormon is any indication, there comes a time when people cannot repent (because of their mindsets).  They are "past feeling."

I don't know about you, but the possible fact that Jesus could return as early as 40 years from now gives me cause for concern. Who will be ready? Will I? But my concern is more for my loved ones. My children, my siblings and their families, my cousins and other relatives, my friends and acquaintances, even those who seem to be enemies of some sort. 

Would to God that all people might repent, turn to Christ, and follow Him. 
Why must we suffer? 
Why must we harden our hearts? 
Why must we hurt each other? 
Why must we live in fear, anger, vengeance, and contention? 

Let us lift up our hearts together. 
Let us unite in love! 
Let us cease contending. 
Let us cease lifting up ourselves or others on pedestals as one(s) to be heeded above others. 
Let us humbly turn to our Lord, Jesus Christ. 
Let us see ourselves for the fools we really are. 

Holy, holy, holy is the most High - for it is by His grace and His grace alone that we are saved, not by any act of ourselves. 

We may repent, we may accept His awesome grace and incredible mercy, but it is He who has trodden the winepress alone. It is He who has opened the door to our salvation and peace. With all my heart and mind, I throw out into the "ethers" the invitation to come unto Christ, and to be one with Him. Amen.

Thoughts on the Atonement

I was thinking abut the atonement several days ago and wanting to write my thoughts down, but I haven't been able to figure out where or how to write my thoughts. Here and now is as good as anytime or anything. Remember, this came from my own ponderings. This is not official anything.

The atonement happens because we agreed to it. There is no magic about it. (Really, this is a different topic than my last post, though it overlaps somewhat.)

In the premortal world, a plan was presented. The problem was stated. We, as pure and holy beings, knew that if we made mistakes or outright rebelled we would feel so guilty that we could not bear to be in our Father's presence. But we knew we would make mistakes. So, how could we go out on this venture and have a chance to return after the venture was over?

Well, there was a plan presented by the Father God. He said, “I can send one down who is part God and part mortal. Because he has a foot in both worlds, he can bring the two together. He will be the liaison. But I will need to send someone who has been tried and found faithful because - number one - he needs to be without sin. Being part God will genetically predispose him to goodness but the core of his inner soul needs to be such that he will not sin. Your collective faith will do the rest.

“Second, if you agree to give him your sins and your pains, your regrets and your guilt, I will decree a law that such will be so. It will be binding because of the law of common consent. But it will be excruciatingly painful, nearly impossible to bear, even for a God-hybrid. So, we need someone we can trust one hundred percent to go through with it.”

Here, I'm going to skip to what the Pearl of Great Price (Abraham 3:27) calls the second answer, though it is possible that the second answer came in jealousy over the firmness of the volunteer who answered first.

There was a stir among the people of the children of the Father-God as they discussed this. Some didn't think it was fair to make one of their siblings the recipient of everyone's guilt and pain, especially if he was innocent of any guilt at all. Others felt guilty already for causing a sibling so much pain, even though it hadn't happened yet. Others saw that there was really no other way for the problem to be solved.

After much discussion, one spoke up -

“It isn't fair or right that one among us should suffer so unjustly for us all.”

Some nodded and verbalized their agreement.

“I have a better plan,” he said.

“What is it?” asked the Father God.

“I'll go down and be the savior. I will make it so that not one soul will be lost. No one will have to feel guilty over causing excessive pain and trauma to an innocent sibling because sin and error will simply not exist.”

“How do you propose to do that?” asked the Father God.

“When we put the veil of forgetfulness over our eyes, we will also make ourselves pliable and compliant to my will. They will always be obedient because they will be incapable of thinking or speaking or acting in any other way.”

“Your will?”

“Of course. As the author of the plan, the glory is mine. My brilliant plan will prevent the loss of even one soul. I should have the Father's glory because my plan is better. We've got to be progressive here - and compassionate.”

“What do you think of that plan?” the Father God asked his children.

The children discussed it.

“How will we be able to learn and grow and become like Father if we are forced to obey?” asked one.

“Or if we are not given the freedom to even think?” asked another.

“How can we learn from our mistakes if we don't make any?” asked still another.

“Look, you're not going to be forced to do anything,” the plan-giver replied. “Force implies choice. You won't be forced. You will have chosen here, therefor your choice has not been trampled upon.

“Listen, you won't want to rebel or do anything wrong. That's the beauty of it. Force doesn't even enter the picture. Not only will all of you return to Father, but you won't be the cause of excruciating pain to anyone. Do you really want Father to slaughter one of his children because you were too selfish to accept my plan?”

There was more discussion. Finally a vote was taken. The majority chose the Father's plan.

“So, who shall I send?” he asked again.

“Me, of course,” said the plan-giver, planning to push his plan through after he was chosen. “As the eldest it is my right.”

“I will go,” said another. “Send me.”

“What of my glory?” asked the Father God.

“I don't want your glory. I want what is best for my siblings. I want them to be free to direct their lives, and to be able to change course when they screw up.”

“But youare not the eldest,” pointed out the plan-giver.¹“Thus you have no right to be the savior of your siblings.”

“I will send you,” said the Father God.

“Me?” asked the plan-giver.

“No,”said the Father. “I am sending the one who will sacrifice himself.”

The plan-giver didn't take that too well. The rejection agitated in his soul. Eventually, he rebelled and decided to take his Father's kingdom by force. That didn't work out too well for him, and for his efforts, he was cast out of the kingdom.

So, the atonement is wrought by a law given with our common consent. Our very hearts are intertwined in the way the atonement works, with how it was set up.

When the judgment day arrives, we will not be ignorant of our part in choosing the plan that included a sacrificial offering. If we have chosen to give all of our sins to Christ, we will have honored our commitment to the plan and we will know it. The honor in our souls (in spite of what we may have done or become here) is what holds up the plan. The law that was made during the planning to which we gave our common consent still lives in each of our hearts.

This has not been a very good description of what I have been pondering. The gist is -

1. We knew that we would feel too horrible to return to God's presence if we made even one mistake.
   
   
2. We agreed to the sacrifice. Without our common consent, it would not have been put in place.
   
   
3. The faith of the faithful, the fact that Jesus was a God hybrid, and Jesus' own natural personality are what made it possible for him to live without sin and to complete the atonement.
   
   
4. Putting our sins on Jesus was something we chose, that's why it is possible to put our sins on him. We simply re-choose what we once chose. Very simple. Too simple for those who want to think of the atonement as something too deep and too mysterious to understand.

The mechanics of how the sins were put upon Jesus is something I have not yet understood.

I wish I could say more, but I am unable to put the rest of my ponderings into words, even in my own mind. I am hoping that my bumbling way to express what little I can is helpful and uplifting to someone, though.

1 I get this idea from the scriptures where it is often the younger brother who rules over the elder, even in the case of twins like Esau and Jacob. For the purpose of my thoughts, the scenario is that they are twins, with one just barely older than the other - though birth order as we know it probably does not exist in heaven. The plan-giver probably lost the “Firstborn status” he would have had if he had been chosen.

Thoughts on King Benjamin's Sermon

I was studying Mosiah 3:25 - Mosiah 4:1 and received what seemed to me to be tremendous insights. (Remember, there's a disclaimer somewhere on this site that my posts are my own opinions.)

I'm going to put my notes below, then try to clean it up a little so that, hopefully, it will make sense.

If's one's works are evil, that person is consigned (not sure what that means) to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations. Their view, their guilt is the punishment. This view causes them to shrink from God's presence - And they shrink into a state of misery and endless woe - whence they can no more return!

The idea that people can or will somehow advance from a lower kindgom to a higher is shot out of the water here. If they feel guilt - shrinking from God's presence - it's a “no more return” (to God) thing.

And they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

In other words, it was their own doing. They cannot blame others or circumstances no matter how bad they were. Someone growing up in hell, if taught the truth by the Spirit, is just as accountable as someone growing up in righteousness who has been taught by the Spirit.

Thisis drinking out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice cannot deny! Why can it not deny it? Because YOUknowyou are guilty! It has absolutely nothingto do with “little intelligences” that refuse to allow God to let us advance. There are no little intelligences telling God, “Uh, uh, You held usback.”

No, it is allwithin each soul. Wehave a sense of justice within us. When we are brought to ourselves again, and it is everlastingly too late, weare the ones who cannot deny that justice was done. We know, perfectly well, that we are not worthy, because we rejected mercy when it was extended to us.

We cannot deny God's justice because it is also our justice. We are part of God. We have forgotten that here. We think we can hide from God. We think we can hide our sins. But we cannot. The sins are written in our souls. If we have not repented and taken the Holy Spirit for our guide, wewill know it. And because weknow it, we will shrink from God, feeling excruciating pain at being in His presence - and forever carrying the guilt and torment. It may be allayed somewhat as we move far away from God, but being separated from God is hell. So, then, where are we?

Mercy NEVERhas claim again. Neverforever.You cannot get more plain than that.

Their torment is asa lake of fire and brimstone. There is no realfire, no realbrimstone. The comparison is a figure of speech from something long forgotten, though some scholars claim to know where it came from.

It is a figure of speech, originated by those who sawsuch a lake (or lakes). They sawhow terrible the fire, brimstone, and smoke was.

Now, I understand that the idea was supposed to have originated from a group of evil men who prepared the fires to torment and kill others, but I submit that this idea may be more ancient than that. I submit that this goes to the root of the myths about the violent and angry gods such as Venus, Mercury, Mars, and so forth, those planets that once terrorized the earth.

And what do we teach each other today? We teach about the three degrees of glory and how most people will go to a degree of glory. Any torment before reaching one of those is glossed over or ignored. Few of us will be consigned to actual hell, we say. And some few even teach that there is progression from kingdom to kingdom. Others teach that all those in outer darkness, whether with a body or without, will have a total dissolution into intelligences and have another go at becoming Gods.

Some teach that we keep coming back to this life over and over again until we either give up or get it right. They claim that this is notreincarnation. But this view is refuted in the Book of Mormon. Thislife(not some past or future lives) is the day in which to repent and produce fruit. Besides that, our tendency to act in a certain way will remain - whether we are totally dismantled and put together again or whether we come back to this life six hundred times. How we act will not change. One life is enough to show who and what we really are. And that is the purpose of this life after all: To show us what and who we really are when we are wearing blinders.

“There is no hell.” “There is no devil.” And thus he whispereth in their ears and draws them down to hell with his flaxen cords that have turned into chains of iron.

I don't think we take the opportunities offered is in this life seriously enough. We think we'll get another chance in the spirit world. We think we'll magically want what we either did not want or actively fought against here - so we blithely assume, suppose, and hope that unhearing or antagonistic loved ones (or even ourselves) will magically transform once they are dead. Some truths, apparently, are too hard for people to bear.

I had an experience that showed me this truth (that we do not change once we hit the spirit world).

I was working for a man who had - oh, I'm thinking it was Musser, but I'm not sure - anyway this person's journal (on small floppy disks), who was a leader in what eventually became the FLDS church. When I worked for the man, he was blind and could not do his own typing, so he hired me to help him. He wanted me to type the journals for him.

As I typed, I came across something I could not decipher. I didn't know what to do, so I asked the man who wrote the journals to tell me what the words said. I thought, living in the spirit world and having his eyes opened, he would have a different view of polygamy and all that. He did not. He was very eager to tell me what the words were that I could not read. In fact, he was very eager for me to understand where he was coming from. He was very enthusiastic as I typed the journal. He was pleased that it was being done, even though it would not further his purposes. He never tormented my dreams or anything. He was respectful of me, but I could sense the eagernesswith which he shared the missing words.

I promise you: We do not change simply because we have died.

Back to my notes: Benjamin has finished telling the people what the angel told him to say to them. He looks at the people and sees they have fallen to the earth. They have understood his words. They have understood that they don't get to come back over and over again (whether from scratch, as an intelligence, or as a spirit being). They have understood that theywill be the condemner of themselves. And so on.

They know full well what they are. They can and do clearlysee their own fallen state. They are carnal. They are sensual. They are devilish. They see the natural tendency to deny justice and concentrate on mercy - receiving mercy without following the laws that lead to mercy. They are less than the dust of the earth, because the dust of the earth obeys God willingly, never putting it off, never refusing, never complaining.

Dowe realize this stuff? Do I realize this? Am Iguilty of any of these things (being carnal, sensual, devilish, unwilling to always obey every single thing God tells me to do)?Of course I am. I admit it freely. But my desire is to change until I am not guilty. I amchanging. I can feel it, and I can see it.

This book (the Book of Mormon) was written for us, those who read it and those believe it. It was written for me. It is a warning to us so that we will not lift up our eyes in hell, being in torment. It is a handbook to teach us how to come to Christ, until we are redeemed from the fall and brought back into God's presence. That means wehad better scrupulously study this book. Ihad better do so.

It was written to help us escape from hell. How was that again? [This is referring to previous parts of Benjamin's sermon.]

Believe in Jesus Christ. Understand that He lived and what He did. Understand your need to repent. Understand that little children and the ignorant are covered by the atonement. Understand that it is youwho are the catalyst for the power of the atonement in your life. Understand that youare the marker and the judge and you cannotdeceive yourself at the last day, let alone deceive God.

Understand that the punishment and torment is real. Don't minimize it. Don't ignore it. Understand that God sends holy prophets (and they may not be who you expect them to be) to warn us and to teach us. But, ultimately, it is between us and God, not between us an anyman.

Understand that Jesus is the onlyway. It is in yoursoul that justice will be satisfied. Youwill judge yourself. What about all the other judges? 12 original apostles, 12 disciples, etc. I think there is more to that information than meets the casual eye. They will not condemn us. Neither will Christ. We will. We are less subservient than we think.

[Note: if you want scripture references for what I've written that is not in Benjamin's speech, search the Book of Mormon; it's in there.]