Thoughts on the allegory of Adam and Eve and the Fall

Disclaimer: I don't know anything and I already know that.


When God said, "Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," what he really said was, "Don't choose fear.".

The fallen one tried to get Adam to fear, but Adam wouldn't listen, so the fallen one tried to get Eve to fear. He found a way in, and Eve shared that fear with Adam. Perhaps she started a fight with him.

Then God returned and they couldn't bear to be in his presence because they had partaken of fear and anger. That made the Light and Love impossible to bear, so they had to leave to continue to exist.

And their children were born to parents who had learned to fear, and who had learned to be angry. And the fallen ones capitalized on that to create as much pain and mayhem and fear as they could get away with in all of the generations since Eva and Adam.

As far as the first clothing goes, I've heard the theory that Eve and Adam were clothed in Light until they "ate the fruit" - then that Light left and they had no covering to protect them, so God made clothing that would work in a pinch, but wasn't as good as what they had before.

Why, then, do the scriptures say the man and the woman were naked but not ashamed? Maybe because they didn't wear clothing like we do, but were clothed in Light.

What about Eve/the scriptures saying Adam and Eve would have had no children? It's possible they were in training and, at some point, the Gods would have taught them how to combat fear with love, then they would have gone prepared to the dark spot in the garden (see below).

Why were fallen ones allowed to roam the garden? I'm sure I do not know . . . but what if they were only confined to one area? What if they were confined to the spooky old house and yard in a certain part of the garden that was majorly creepy to anyone who knew what fear was? What if the Gods said to stay away from that creepy place? (After all, the fallen ones were kicked out onto the same planet. Maybe they demanded a place next to Adam and Eve's house. Far enough away to not overpower them unawares, but close enough to entice them because . . . well, I guess life is about choices. And, besides that, this planet was their turf.)

Adam wasn't interested in the spooky old house, but EVe wondered what it was, so crossed over the boundaries to explore it. In that case, the fallen ones had a chance to put fear and anger into her heart and mind.

And, since it's an allegory, what if the Gods were Eve and Adam's parents (two couples) who had survived a global disaster, and had reached a spiritual level so high that they were, in reality, Gods?

Just wondering. It makes for an interesting story, to be sure.

Suffering Poor vs 100B Dollars Sitting Around Collecting Interest

I honestly believe "the poor of the Lord's people" are all the poor on the planet, especially those who die from malnutrition or bad water.

The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

    Isaiah 3:14-15
    2 Ne 13:14-15

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.

    Mormon 5:22 - 24

And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

    1 Nephi 22:13

They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

    Doctrine and Covenants Section 1:16

AND the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves!  should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
    
And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
    
My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
    
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
    
Old Testament | Ezekiel 34:1 - 11

Didja ever wonder . . .

. . . if Krishna might really be God?

. . . if the God we know as Jesus/Jehovah/Joshua/Yeshua is the exact same person as some of "those" nonChristian Gods?

. . . if maybe we know a millionth of what we think we know?

. . .  if what we "know" to be truth might not be, after all?

. . . if we might be altogether wrong in what we perceive as absolutely God's own truth?

. . . if we might be full of putrid pride and not even have an inkling that we do?

. . . if maybe what we consider to be heinous sin doesn't necessarily match God's list in most respects?

. . . if the records of the Mayans and Aztecs might be spot on?

. . . if the records of ancient people all over the planet might know exactly what they're talking about when they say crazy stuff

. . . like planets were fighting each other in the sky
. . . like the year used to be 360 days long
. . . like the moon's cycle used to be exactly 30 days long
. . . like the sun used to come up in a different direction
. . . like the seasons were completely changed after dramatic upheaval
. . . like there are huge ages of the earth, separated by earth-wide cataclysmic events

. . . if there was a real reason for the ancient fear that the sun might disappear

. . . if we really don't know what we are, whether we have an eternal existence, how our internal (nonbody) self was created, what our eternal end might be (or maybe it really does end at death, and we are reabsorbed into a Great Mind or something similar).


Some people think each of us is a spirit that can split into more than one piece and be on earth as a mortal, while simultaneously being elsewhere (including on earth at the same time as the other part of us).

Some wonder if we are presently living our past, present and future - or if we are presently living on more than one earth (different dimensions) at the same time.

Beliefs can get pretty crazy, can't they?

I confess, I'm one of those who have wondered some of those crazy things - for like 50 years.

What is reality, anyway?

Yeah, what is reality anyway?




[Edit: For some reason, even though I changed nothing in the post, Blogger decided I published this today (Oct 20th). I don't recall when I originally published it, but I think it was after the 4-part posts, so I am randomly assigning it the date of October 7th.] 

Celebrating the 500th year of the Christian Reformation

http://www.christianreformation500years.info/venues--dates.html


For all Christians everywhere. This is not a series of lectures for Mormons; it is directed toward those belonging to historic Christianity. There is no charge, no plate will be passed, and no offering will be requested. No one will try to trap you into joining some sect or other. See the link above for the places in which these talks will be held.


Los Angeles, California
Thursday
​September 21, 2017
7:00-8:30pm

Dallas, Texas
Thursday
​October 19, 2017
6:00-7:30pm

Atlanta, Georgia
​Thursday
November 16, 2017
5:30-7:00pm

Being a Missionary for the Lord

I have just finished reading a blog post. It is very, very long but the light and knowledge I received from it was very strong, and I feel-very strongly-that I should post a link to it. Please feel free to pass the link along; I'm sure the young man writing the blog would be very willing to edify any and all who can be edified by his post. I would post a synopsis, but the synopsis would be quite long and I could not do justice to what the young man says in his own words.

http://keepit100withchapterandverse.blogspot.com/2017/07/life-off-old-ship-year-sojourn-through.html

Teach Your Children to Honor God

These are just some random thoughts I'm having. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about.

Teach your children to honor God. How do you do that if, like me, your kids are grown? What does "honor God" mean anyway?

I thought about that, and came up with nothing about a week ago. But, today, something did come to mind. We honor God by loving and forgiving each other. We teach our children to honor God by loving and forgiving them, as well as loving and forgiving all who cross our path.

For example, this latest fiasco in the restorationist movement. A blog post written in haste, accusing Denver, casting aspersions on the new scriptures, raising an alarm about a man no one knows - only to find out that the person writing the blog had her facts wrong. What was wrong with her heart? Nothing? Something? That is only for God to judge. My point in bringing her up is that I, also, have reacted in alarm and anger in my life, saying and doing foolish things that I later regretted, things that did not show charity toward my fellow humans.

Matt Crockett wrote a blog post some time ago, in which he essentially commanded Denver, using God's authority (in vain/erroneously, in my opinion) to be our king. This was because Matt did not know that many of us did not need Denver to be a king, and would resent having one, because we were working with God, even if we listened to and believed every word coming out of Denver's mouth (believing every word is probably not wise, as he is a man and prone to error; I simply used that as an example). I reacted to the post uncharitably. I even emailed Denver, complaining about the post. I was so focused on that part of the post that I did not notice the good things in it.

Here is some insight I have gotten recently (quoted from messages I wrote on Skype to a couple of friends):

I think we each saw different parts. Kind of like the blind men and the elephant. I saw that part and was "offended" that he would command Denver to be my king when I was relishing my freedom from kings, thank you very much! I think I feared that if he was listened to I would be brought back into bondage. I've been in bondage to [exhusband], to the LDS Church, to the school system, to the judicial system, and to the medical system (albeit only when I was young, as far as the medical system goes), and there's no way in hell, on earth, or in heaven I wanted someone to push bondage on me again.

You, having no such issues, saw more expansively. You saw several good things in there that I saw later (after you pointed them out, most likely), but my fear of Matt having the power to force me into bondage to Denver ticked me off, and made me protest.

One of my friends replied:

Yet the bondage would have been of your own choice.

I replied:

But I couldn't see that. In fact, the insight I'm sharing here in regards to my own feelings was something I couldn't clearly see then. But now, today, I can clearly see that it was all my own issues. The problem was me, and whether or not Matt was out of line really made no difference - because, as you say, I still had a choice though I feared that choice would be taken away from me.

My point in sharing all this: We honor God by owning our weaknesses, and ceasing to be offended by others. We honor God, and teach our children to do so, by our willingness to own our offenses and not project them onto others, who are only acting as humans will act. We honor God by our willingness to forgive and to love.

Rejoice!

For the purposes of this discussion "belief in Christ"=following the doctrine of Christ as explained in the Book of Mormon.

Have you received "church discipline" for your belief in Christ? Have you been excommunicated or pressured to resign for your belief in Christ? Has your spouse reported you to a bishop or stake president because of your belief in Christ? Has your spouse divorced you (spurred on by the advice of a bishop to do so, or on their own) because of your belief in Christ? Do neighbors shun you? Do former friends ignore you, avoid you, bear testimony of men to you, or talk about your "apostasy" to each other - because of your belief in Christ? Has your family essentially disowned you because of your belief in Christ?

Rejoice!

As written in both the Book of Mormon and the New Testament:

And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake; For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.
3 Nephi 12:11-12

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12

Also notice this in verse 8 of both chapters:

And blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Note that there is no caveat declaring that this experience has to happen in some other life, after death, at judgment day.

. . . every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am. [emphasis added]
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS version) 93:1

 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things. Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS version) 88:68

And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual. For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God. Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS version) 67:10-12

Question: Is this promise only to those men "ordained to the ministry"? Is it only for those men Joseph was preaching the word of the Lord to? Or is this promise to everyone?


Was Nephi speaking only to those "ordained to the ministry" when he said these things:

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter.  For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.  Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh.  And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

You. You plural? You singular? Nephi wasn't talking to us, right? Only to his descendants, referring to Jesus' future visit to some tiny portion of Nephi's descendants. That's why he saw us, right? So that he would not keep a record addressing us, right? Nephi's not plain. No way does he speak in plainness - because, then, he just might be saying something like this:

Follow Christ with full purpose of heart. Repent. Be baptized. Then you'll have a remission of sins, and baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost (in other words, they are two different things). Then Christ will tell you what to do. These words of Christ come by the power of the Holy Ghost. To you. Not through some man, some priest, some bishop, someone "in authority." Then, at some point after you have received this doctrine, Christ will manifest himself in the flesh - to you. Flesh. You (singular).

If only those "ordained to the ministry" can see Christ in this life, then I submit that only those "ordained to the ministry" are allowed to repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and receive the baptism of fire. Sounds silly to me.

Blessed are you when you are persecuted for Christ's sake, when you are disbelieved, mocked, cast out, lose your marriage and/or your family, lose your job, are shunned, and/or treated as though you had leprosy because you recognized the Lord's voice through a true messenger, recognized a true prophet of God, and were baptized as a result of your belief in Christ, your faith in Christ. Not faith in the messenger, but in the Son of God.

Rejoice! For so persecuted they those who believed in Christ and his doctrine for centuries upon centuries. For so persecuted they who were cast out from formally organized churches. For so persecuted they who chose to follow the Lord instead of some man or some woman or some "sighted" person.

This earth is waxing old. Destructions are happening and I suspect they will continue to happen. Praise God and stand firm in faith in HIM and only him. He is more important than your job, than your family*, than your ecclesiastical leaders. More important than anything else in this life.

Rejoice!

*This is not a license to cast away your spouse, children, or other relatives. Be an example of a true follower of Christ. Make it difficult for them to cast you off because of your love and patience and genuine long-suffering toward them. Seek not only Christ, but also seek the pure love of Christ.

On These Latter Days. What is Really Happening Here?

A few years ago, a woman wrote to an apostle and said the following things:

"Everyday I ask the Lord how I can repent and please him. It's the driving force in my life."

"I desire to get out of the church of the devil and become a member of the church of the Lamb of God." [Note: she was not referring to the corporate church in which her membership resides.]

"Right now I'm repenting of my sins so I can get on the straight and narrow path. I ask the Lord daily to reveal my sins to me so I can repent. When I am sufficiently pure, the Lord will come and give me further instructions."

"It has been my understanding that . . . all of you [First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve] have been sanctified, have had the experience of seeing the Savior face to face, and have become apostolic witnesses of His birth, death, atonement, and resurrection. As part of that experience you've also seen the history and future of the world. Is this true?"

"I too was surprised to find out that Apostles don't need to have a unique and special witness of Christ."

[After quoting Elder Haight's vision] - "Have all the apostles received an apostolic witness of Christ unique and different from the faith and belief that most of us have? I like many others believe He lives because we can feel it in our hearts, but we are not yet special witnesses of Him. Have you seen him and witnessed His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His Crucifixion, His Resurrection, and His ascension?"

"I need to know why we call the current First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Prophets, Seers, and Revelators."

He replied and said the following things:

"I have . . . prayerfully pondered how I should answer you. What follows is what I feel prompted to say."

"The questions you have asked suggest that you may be out of harmony with the leaders the Lord has called to lead His Church. You reject the teachings of some of them by name, and you ask me and others (by implication) to answer questions you have set up to judge whether we are qualified to hold the positions to which we have been called . . . ."

"You also speak of 'the special apostolic witness of Christ.' Where do you find that kind of 'witness' defined or even mentioned in the scriptures?"

"From what you have written I feel to ask whether you are receiving and fulfilling the callings and hearing the counsel from your own local leaders, such as your bishop? Are you making and keeping the covenants we make when we partake of the sacrament each week?"

The bottom line as I see it:

Her: "The scriptures tell me I ought to be seeking the Lord's face. I really want to continually repent until I receive the promises God has made in our scriptures.

"I also understand that you [fifteen men at the top of the hierarchy] have seen Him and have had marvelous experiences. Is this true?

"This apostle chastises people for seeking such things. This other apostle shared his marvelous experiences. Have you and the other living apostles had this experience? Are you qualified to genuinely be prophets, seers, and revelators?"

Him: "I perceive that you are in need of repentance. How dare you question us! How dare you put yourself on equal footing with us by asking if we have seen the Lord? Are you following your local leaders? Are you performing your callings?"

Unspoken: "Of course we have not seen the Lord. I haven't, and I am threatened by your letter. It creates a super-icky feeling to think that you might actually see the Lord, thus surpassing me and my fellows in holiness. Better to squash you now and put the fear of an apostolic reprimand into your soul than that you should actually see and experience what my fellows and I have not and, indeed, do not believe is possible. We have the power of eternal life and eternal death. Do not think to rise up to our level nor to surpass us."


In light of that, here is an interesting prophecy:

The restoration is about to be completely compromised by the institutional LDS organization. If we do not establish another way to avoid the coming catastrophe, the restoration will utterly fail. The movement begun now will seem very prescient in a few years. In coming days many people will want a place to land as the LDS Church undergoes changes to retain their standing, favorable tax status, popularity and wealth. People need a place to fellowship where they can function and learn how to preserve the restoration in a place that will be a refuge for those fleeing an increasingly corrupt organization.

What has begun may seem small, unnecessary and even rebellious at present. It will not be long before it is viewed very differently.

 Accepting and performing *same sex marriages in temples. (The groundwork has already been laid with the "follow the prophet above past prophets, above the scriptures, and above the Lord Himself.")

A split among the Brethren as some go one way and some go another.

Finances finally being disclosed and faithful members being shocked at the naked truths about how their money was spent ("pay your tithing even if it means you don't have money to pay your bills, even if it means your children go hungry").

What is your breaking point, if you are a faithful believer in all things LDS? A believer in the Book of Mormon, in Joseph Smith as a prophet, in Jesus our Lord? That breaking point is sure to come.



*I want to be very plain about my views on same sex marriage. I believe the gov't has no right to dictate marriage laws. Marriage is between God and a couple, or between the couple, themselves. I also see homosexuality as a weakness of the flesh, but not nearly as heinous as cheating, loving a lie, stealing from the poor, grinding the face of the poor, building fine sanctuaries and setting oneself up as a Light, speaking as though one had authority from the Lord when one does not even know Him, lusting after power and wealth, anger, jarrings, contentions, and jealousies.

In other words, I see a difference between a weakness one cannot help and a sin one actively pursues.

Times they are a changin'

It seems like things have gone into a higher gear since September 2014.

I have always thought this restoration movement, this movement to preserve the restoration was so that people would have a place to come to when all hell broke loose in the LDS Church. Look at the prophecy below.

The restoration is about to be completely compromised by the institutional LDS organization. If we do not establish another way to avoid the coming catastrophe, the restoration will utterly fail. The movement begun now will seem very prescient in a few years. In coming days many people will want a place to land as the LDS Church undergoes changes to retain their standing, favorable tax status, popularity and wealth. People need a place to fellowship where they can function and learn how to preserve the restoration in a place that will be a refuge for those fleeing an increasingly corrupt organization.

What has begun may seem small, unnecessary and even rebellious at present. It will not be long before it is viewed very differently.

(Days, not literal, I am sure. But months? Maybe. Years? Without doubt.)

We have our work cut out for us. Are we sufficiently humble? Are we void of accusations and contentions? Do we return persecution and pain with kindness and meekness? Are we opening the doors of heaven with our faith?

Will we be found worthy to entertain angels and to be opening, welcoming arms for those whose faith in all things LDS has been shattered?

I don't know about others, but for me, I feel I have so much to work on. There is so much I lack. I pray continually that I may stand, that I may be a shelter from the storm when people's faith in the restoration and even in Jesus Christ are compromised in the coming years.

Acts 16:16-22

And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers, And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans. And the multitude rose up together against them[.]

Strong's numbers:

Damsel - παιδίσκη
paidiskē
pahee-dis'-kay
Feminine diminutive of G3816; a girl, that is, (specifically) a female slave or servant: - bondmaid (-woman), damsel, maid (-en).

Spirit - πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Divination - Πύθων
Puthōn
poo'-thone
From Πυθώ Puthō (the name of the region where Delphi, the seat of the famous oracle, was located); a Python, that is, (by analogy with the supposed diviner there) inspiration (soothsaying): - divination. [Only occurs once in the Bible.]

Gain - ἐργασία
ergasia
er-gas-ee'-ah
From G2040; occupation; by implication profit, pains: - craft, diligence, gain, work.

Soothsaying - μαντεύομαι
manteuomai
mant-yoo'-om-ahee
From a derivative of G3105 (meaning a prophet, as supposed to rave through inspiration); to divine, that is, utter spells (under pretence of foretelling): - by soothsaying. [Only occurs once in the Bible.]

 Now, my questions are these:
Why did it bother Paul? I mean, she was bearing testimony of them. She was, in essence, saying, "Listen to these men. They're servants of God. They show us the way to salvation."

Did he just get irritated because she was rather like a groupie?

Was it because she was female (Paul's other writings show him to be rather misogynistic)?

Why do we assume/teach each other it was a devil? Maybe it was a gift inside of her and not an actual separate being possessing her.

Wouldn't her testimony cause others to listen to Paul and his companion? Didn't the Lord say that those who are not against us are for us?

Is every spirit that possesses people from God? Is every gift of divination from God? Do some "gifted" people simply make things up? If they testify of the truth, are they of the wrong spirit? If they testify of truth at times and make things up at other times, which spirit are they of?

And, seriously, did this girl just irritate Paul because she hung around him - or were her masters making money off of Paul's presence? You know, hanging around him and putting in her own little prophecies and teachings on the side, which brought money and attention to her masters.

In other words, maybe they were sharing their own teachings alongside Paul, but that was not written in the record we now have.

I dunno. It just seems strange that he would get ticked off at her for testifying that they were true messengers of God.

Parable of the Talents

God's course is one eternal round. He does not vary.

 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.
Doctrine and Covenants 3:2
----------------
LISTEN to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.
Doctrine and Covenants 35:1

His focus is on us - to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life . . . eventually. (How long that takes depends upon us and what we choose to do or be.)

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:39

Before the foundation of this earth, there was another round, a previous chance for us to rise up. Some did and some didn't.

And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:38

And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
Book of Mormon, Alma 13:4

Like Moses, we only know about this round.

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.  For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power.  And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them
Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:35

(I would like to know more about the earths "that now stand.")

We bring with us the level we raised to previously, even though we don't remember what that level was.

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith . . .

Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;
Book of Mormon, Alma 13:3-4, 10

Some of us went one step higher, some five, and some ten - and that is what we brought with us from "heaven".

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability;
Matthew 25:14-15

In this round, in this existence, we get to choose again. We can refuse to rise up. We can refuse to heed God. We can refuse to hear His messengers (and how unlikely a messenger they seem to be). We can refuse to follow Christ. We can refuse to seek His face.

In that case, we lose even the level we had risen up to before, in the last round, be it one, five, or ten. (I doubt that, in this case, the personal levels can be given to another - but what do I know? This present post is reflecting understanding I was recently given. It is a ladder that spirals round and round. If I continue, I will understand more and more about this stuff, about this parable's meanings.)

Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:14

But, if we do rise up, if we do seek the face of Christ -
If we do seek to remove all
jarring
contention
envying
lust for power and wealth

and

replace them with
compassion
loving kindness
willingnes to share what we can with the poor and needy
sacrifice all things to God (not to an institution)

then we will increase our talents.

To the degree that we rise up to do God's will (not some man's will, no matter what authority he professes to hold - and men like this are not confined to legal institutions), to that degree our talents increase.

And the more we increase here, the more we will have in the afterlife, so that in the next round instead of being the man with one talent, we may be the one with five or ten (and the one with five or ten could just as easily forfeit his talents in this round as the one with one. There is no guarantee of success. It depends upon us and the choices we make).

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
Doctrine and Covenants 130:18-19

And about that word talent? Even though we know it meant "money" in the old days, we seem to teach each other that it conveys the modern meaning, thus we think it is telling us to enlarge our talents to sing, draw, build cars, collect money, and so forth.

What if the Lord used the word "talent" because it connoted something valuable in that society (as it [money] also does in ours), something many people set their heart on. What if the transfer of meaning was supposed to be "something valuable" - something that gives life? (In the United States, not having money means no food, no shelter, few (if any) friends, being shunned, etc.)

In any case, those are the thoughts given to me on this subject. No doubt, the parable of the talents has varied and deeper meanings. No doubt, if I rise up to a higher level of intelligence, I will look back on this post and consider it on a toddler level at best.


The two version of the parable of the talents:

Luke 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant.  Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Matthew 25:14-30
 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

On True Messengers

I read a post today on a forum I go to probably far too often. There was a note of sadness in it. There was a feeling of, "This is serious stuff. I've made my choice, and the choosing was not easy."

I feel the need to post my reply here, as well as on that thread:

I feel your pain, MegaManToo. It is a rough road. A painful thing. Any who are aware of what Denver teaches seems to be put in a position of choosing, of discerning if he is a liar and a charlatan or if he is bona fide.

One thing that is certain is that if Denver is a liar (about seeing the Lord, and about saying what the Lord wants Him to say), he certainly should be ignored and he will surely be damned to hell.

If, however, he is telling the truth, it behooves us to know that, even if what he says is painful.

Pruning out false beliefs can be excruciatingly painful. Attempting to discern who is telling the truth can be frustrating or confusing.

Following our trusted traditions is probably what most will do who hear of Denver. Doing otherwise puts a person in peril of their standing in the church. It may create cognitive dissonance. It most surely will put us at odds with family, friends, and our wards and stakes. It will, no doubt, lead to the sacrifice of all things.

PtHG was a painful book, but Denver makes very little in the way of damning comment (if any). Mostly, he quotes from original sources. His conclusions, as I understood them, were that Christ's hand was still over the church, that the Gentiles were (and have been since BY's time) fulfilling what was said and prophesied in the Book of Mormon.

But if Denver was/is a true prophet, a true messenger, what will happen to those who have figuratively "shot the messenger"? Is Christ's hand still over the Church in that case? Or just over the church (the humble followers who seek Him still, who do not know there is a true messenger around)?

If "by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" is true and Denver is a true messenger boy, is it not a serious and grave thing to have cast him out?

All of this is serious. Dead serious. Not that Denver is important in and of himself. He is not. It is the message. The message offends. It divides. It causes anguish of spirit. It creates "bad feelings" (remember Laman and Lemuel? They had bad feelings about what Nephi taught them, also).

And if Denver is lying. If he is a messenger from the devil, from darkness, he ought to be ignored. He ought to be cast out.

Our eternal salvation lies in the balance when it comes to anyone professing to have a message from our Lord. We ought to take it seriously, just like your post above mine did. I can tell that you feel the import, the weight of knowing if he is a liar or not.

End of my post.

Is it not true that we have eternal decisions to make here? Is it not true that Christ said he came to divide? To bring a sword? Is it not true that He will require the sacrifice of all things? Is it not true that most true messengers where not men in authority, but ordinary men outside of established hierarchies?

Discerning true messengers from false ones is vital to the next plane of existence. From my understanding it changes our projectory for the rest of eternity.

So, how do we do it when it is so painful? How do we know we are not following a "Harmston" or a "Jeffs" or "Korihor"?

I would submit this:

Study scriptures.
The Book of Mormon was one long run-on sentence when it was given to the printer. E.B. Grandin's assistant was saddled with the task of typesetting the book. He had no idea where God wanted the punctuation, but he had to do something. And he did the best he could.

Putting a colon after "these are the words of my father" when it was obvious that the words of the father preceded that sentence is one example of where he didn't quite get it right. But he made the text make a whole lot more sense than it would have otherwise.

So, I would recommend reading the book with the understanding that the punctuation may be different than what you see there.

Who are the Gentiles? 
I suggest reading the book as if you, the reader are a Gentile because, in most cases, it is true. If you have been told that you are of Ephraim in a patriarchal blessing, remember that Isaiah (and it is quoted in the Book of Mormon) prophesied that "Ephraim will be broken that it be not a people" (see Isaiah 7:8 and 2 Nephi 17:8). That would explain why we can be both.

Pride, knowledge, and all that stuff.
I would recommend putting away all that you think you know. Read the book, and pray, as if you were brand new to it all. Put away all you have been taught. Trust that the Lord loves you and would not lead you away into darkness and hell if are are humble and sincere. Be humble enough and brave enough to recognize that it is possible that you don't know it all.

Warm fuzzies versus "bad feelings"
If we read something or hear something and get a "bad feeling" - maybe anger, maybe shock or discombobulation, maybe fear, maybe revulsion - it might be useful to search for the root of that.

Contrary to what we are taught, the Spirit does not give us warm fuzzies if something is from God and "bad feelings" if it is from the devil. A whole lot of people didn't have warm fuzzies when Jesus was preaching - or Stephen (remember him? He was the guy who was stoned while Saul held the coats of those who were doing the murder) - or Abinadi - or Nephi - or Lehi - or Isaiah - or Noah - and on and on we could go.

Joseph Smith said that the Spirit communicated with us by giving us pure knowledge. That is not the same as warm fuzzies or feelings of darkness, as far as I can tell. Those nice feelings and bad feelings are telling us something. It may or may not be what we think.

Prayer, prayer, and more prayer
I would suggest being honest as well as humbling oneself to the dirt. "This scares the hell out of me. Help me understand what's true," is actually an appropriate prayer if you're really feeling that way.

God said He would send a great division among the people. Well, He has done it and is still doing it. There is a tremendous division in regards to what truth might be. And the division seems to be splitting along the lines of "follow the brethren/prophet, they/he can never lead you astray" (this fits all the offshoots from Joseph's day) versus, follow Christ only. If you follow a man, you will be damned because men are not perfect, no matter how true of a prophet they may be.

And the crack, as it enlarges, includes those who are not pleased with the LDS Church building malls, owning thousands upon thousands of acres of lands, leaders driving nice cars and getting great perks, mission presidents having a pretty dang high standard of living, among other things.

The time is shortening for those who are part of the restored church. Truly, the Lord has set His hand a second time to give us a second chance after blowing it in regards to building the Nauvoo temple and encouraging a prophet of God to go to his death (haranguing him into destroying a printing press that he knew would cause his demise, then guilting him into turning himself over to those who would end up killing him).

Whatever you decide, whoever you decide to give heed to, I would recommend serious and ponderous thought. And I wish you well. I pray for you. Not that you will believe as I do, but that God will lead you in the paths of righteousness, and that you will be found at the last day to be on the right hand of the Father.

Critiquing the words of a true servant of God

The Lord Jesus Christ has asked one of His servants to preach via the written word and by mouth. As a result, the man has written several books. His most controversial work, Passing the Heavenly Gift, got him cast out of the church that professes to not only honor and worship the Man who gave him the words to speak, but this church professes to be His own true and living church. I do agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is still working with this church; what I cannot fathom is how those who profess to "know" Christ cannot recognize His words. How can one not hear the voice of the Master in so many of the words spoken and written by the servant?

Yes, PTHG is a painful, even horrid, book to read at times - but the conclusion reached at the end of the book is that the LDS church is still Jesus' church. He is still working with it. And the fact that it has been fulfilling scripture does not make the author who points that out apostate, nor a devil, nor a demon - nor misguided.

Recently, someone said this:

I have noticed numerous instances of problems related to logic, consistency of argument, rhetorical manipulations and other devices that I found troubling. When read with charity and a sincere desire for light and truth, these earlier works can be thrillingly inspiring, albeit flawed. No book is perfect, and we have the Holy Ghost to aid us in discerning light and truth.

The above problems I have noticed in DS's earlier works seem to have multiplied considerably in PTHG.

This person is a person who I believe is attempting to bring us poor "apostates" back to the fold. To some degree the person seems to be sincere, yet they do not "feel" right. My gift of discernment tells me this person is one to be wary of. My reply is below:

I can see this point of view if one does not recognize Denver as a biblical-type prophet of God. Much of what he says is colored by the fact that he has seen "the vision of all," that he has seen and spoken with both the Father and the Son, and that he has conversed with Joseph Smith jr.

We, lacking those experiences, view all that Denver has written from a carnal, Babylonic mindset. We believe we see flaws. We believe ourselves not only justified, but saintly when we point out what we believe to be errors based upon our mere pittance of experience and understanding. Surely Christ is tempted to laugh heartily at our vain and self-serving justifications of what He attempts to teach us through the servants He has called by His own voice. Surely we are puffed up and wise in our own sight. Surely we are so stiff-necked and high minded that we think we know more than God, thus considering ourselves virtuous when we reject truth in whole or in part.

My point in bringing this up is not to diss the person who wrote his/her feelings. My point is this: We humans think we know so much. If we view ourselves as learned, then we think we are wise. I see this all over. The person above is simply the most recent example I have come across.

We think ourselves wiser than God. We think we can parse His words, critique the manner in which His servants speak, find fault and flaws because what is said does not match our reasoning nor our understanding. Rather than being humble, rather than recognizing the voice of the Master, we would prefer to debate, criticize, and do anything that does not entail the possibility that we are in need of repentance, that we are - indeed - less than the dust of the earth, unworthy of salvation, unworthy of the time and effort that Christ puts into us again and again in the hopes that we will at last turn and face Him.

As for me, I am a sinner. I am less than the dust of the earth. I am unworthy of the incredible love and patience my Lord extends to me. I am overawed by the fact that He has deigned to speak through a servant who fears no man, no institution, no government. I am humbled by the fact that I had never supposed before: that the Lord often speaks through those who are not part of the accepted hierarchy. Yet, there it is in scriptures. Even Jesus had no ecclesiastical authority. He and the general authorities of His time would often butt heads.

We are just like the ancient Jews - whether in Jesus' time or in Jeremiah's or Isaiah's time. "If our days had been in those days," we opine, "we/I would have listened to the prophets. We/I would not have cast them out, nor persecuted them, nor killed them."

And what does Jesus have to say to our opining? This:

23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30  And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31  Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32  Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34  ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 23

 This scathing rebuke belongs to us, folks. It belongs to our self-satisfied generation, we who think it is impossible for us to go astray as long as we stay with the humans who lead a corporation even if they contradict the words of Christ as given through his prophet (Joseph Smith) who we are taught didn't really understand things like we do today - and that "new prophets supersede old prophets" and can even contradict the scriptures with impunity.

If we are the holy church of God we are, according to the scriptures, under condemnation. If we are not under condemnation we are not the holy church of God. This is according to Moroni who saw US.

35  Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.  But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36  And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37  For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38  O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?  Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?  Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39  Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40  Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41  Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Let us awake to our awful situation. The times of the gentiles is nearly fulfilled. We are about to lose what we think we have, and it will be given to the righteous descendants of Lehi, as promised by Jesus when He came and preached to them after His resurrection. Let us humble ourselves even to the dust of the earth. Let us view ourselves in our polluted state, with our tables covered with vomit (regurgitated, predigested food instead of the meat of the gospel).

Let us repent of our unbelief and turn to Christ, searching in humility and patience with our whole souls to see his His face in this life, for if we cannot stand in His presence now, what makes us think we can stand in His presence when He returns again with the hosts (Fathers) of heaven?