Questions about the "newly revealed account of John the Beloved’s Testimony of Jesus the Messiah"

I finished reading the document last night, and am rereading it again today, highlighting things in it to help me focus and ponder


I have questions I would like to take to the Lord in regards to some of the things in that document. For example: Peter says he's going to ascend to the deep. Can't be the ocean because that's a descent (even though the current Bible translations have it that he decides to go fishing; I expect the people putting the NT together had no idea what this story was talking about so they edited it to "make more sense").

Ascend - go up
Deep - deep space? Someplace deep anyhow

Ark? What ark? Where? A spaceship? A portal to the heavens? If we saw it, would we immediately think "ark" or would we think "elevator" or something else?

Jesus stood at the sacred entry, and it was at the horizon of the morning star that he did this. Were they on the horizon on earth? Were they actually in space? How did they do this ascent on their own? Did Jesus teach them some woo-woo things so that they knew how to leave this dimension and go into another?

They didn't recognize Jesus at first because his glory was so bright. That's probably the only thing in this part that I can almost-fully understand.

Ritual meal I'm guessing is the sacrament. The Lord asks, "Have you had the sacrament?" (so, they could have hung out there for a while with no celestial beings coming around, since they could have had time to have the ritual meal before the Lord got there?) Then he tells them to approach the veil to the east and they'll find what they're looking for. So, what was it they were looking for?

Are they in a temple? They can't be in the apostate Jewish temple because they've probably been excommunicated and, after killing God's son, I expect heaven wouldn't have a "portal" there anymore. The veil is on the east. Is there another one on the west or south or north or all three?

They approached the veil and were overcome by the multitude of what was received. I expect that is referring to knowledge and understanding, probably things that cannot be written because there's no way they'd know how to put it into words.

Then, John tells Peter that it's the Lord who's talking to them. Peter puts on clothes because he "did not wear the apparel." What apparel? The clothing we see in our temples today? If literal, why did he need to put on clothing? Were all of the others wearing clothing? Ceremonial clothing is what I am supposing. But he needed to wear it, apparently, before he could approach the Lord? Where did he get the clothing? Did he bring it with him? Was it just laying around near the door of the ark? Were they already wearing "the apparel," but he took his off?

Peter cast himself into the great deep (remember, this is up, not down), but the others entered the ark and parted the veil because they were not bound by the limits of this world. So, before then, they had not actually entered the ark? Nor parted the veil? And Peter, being impetuous, didn't just part the veil, but jumped in wholeheartedly (somehow, I picture a friend, Daryl, when I see Peter doing this).

Not being bound by the limits of this world they can defy gravity? Or is it entering a different dimension? Or both?
"... they saw a fire burning at the offering place and the Flesh Offering was upon it, who is also the Bread of Life." What does this quote mean? Jesus was upon the fire? He was upon the offering place? He was the fire?

Eat the food of the rising sun, Jesus says, then gives them his flesh and blood. Is it literally flesh? Literally blood? Bread and wine? Something else? Why is it called the food of the rising sun instead of the food of the Rising Son?

This document is so dang deep I can't see why people are so busy arguing about it (especially against it). It seems to me that the most effective use of this thing is to study it, ponder it, and ask God what it's talking about.

I am reminded of Lemuel and Laman who were discussing their father's dream. Nephi brought up the idea that they could understand it if they asked God about it. They rejected that idea, apparently thinking that God would not tell ordinary people like them anything.

Maybe we shouldn't be arguing about this new revelation. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for ways to prove it did not come from God. Maybe, instead, we should be pondering it, trying to figure it out, and be taking it to God. That's my intention, because I'm more interested in understanding it than in arguing about it.

Helaman 3:27-30

Thus we may see that the Lord is merciful unto all who will, in the sincerity of their hearts, call upon his holy name. Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto all, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God. Yea, we see that whosoever will may lay hold upon the word of God, which is quick and powerful, which shall divide asunder all the cunning and the snares and the wiles of the devil, and lead the man of Christ in a strait and narrow course across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked— And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

Anyone can lay hold on the word of God, not just members of a certain sect (LDS, FLDS, RLDS, JW, SDA, etc.).

The word of God is quick and powerful.

The word of God cuts to bits all the tricks, lies, deceits, traps, and so forth that the devil throws out.

The word of God leads the (hu)man who follows Christ in a strait and narrow course. Rather like a guide who leads people through a forest, because he knows the right trails to follow.

Across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked. This shows my bias towards mortality, but I look at this and see that this mortality touches everlasting on the one side and everlasting on the other. It, being in time, is in the middle.

And is it not a place where the most wicked dwell? Does it not engulf the wicked? Are we not swallowed up in the cares of the world, in perversions, greed, fear, lust for power and money, lust for bodies to play with, the need to survive, and so forth? Are we not all wicked to some degree or other?

To land with the Gods (why does this remind me of fishing? He landed the fish).

To go no more out. What? So, if God makes lots of eternal rounds in an effort to save his children, does this mean that if we follow Christ and don't veer off the path, we don't have to come back to another round? We can be with the Gods? We can be on that upper rung of Jacob's ladder? We don't have to come down into a mortal hell ever again? Sounds enticing to me.

Let's do it. Let's follow Christ and let him lead us safely out of this vale of tears and pain. Let us not allow the cares of this world, the fears of this world, the lusts of this world to distract us from our task of escaping this stuff.

Parable of the Talents

God's course is one eternal round. He does not vary.

 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.
Doctrine and Covenants 3:2
----------------
LISTEN to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.
Doctrine and Covenants 35:1

His focus is on us - to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life . . . eventually. (How long that takes depends upon us and what we choose to do or be.)

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:39

Before the foundation of this earth, there was another round, a previous chance for us to rise up. Some did and some didn't.

And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:38

And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
Book of Mormon, Alma 13:4

Like Moses, we only know about this round.

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.  For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power.  And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them
Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:35

(I would like to know more about the earths "that now stand.")

We bring with us the level we raised to previously, even though we don't remember what that level was.

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith . . .

Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;
Book of Mormon, Alma 13:3-4, 10

Some of us went one step higher, some five, and some ten - and that is what we brought with us from "heaven".

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability;
Matthew 25:14-15

In this round, in this existence, we get to choose again. We can refuse to rise up. We can refuse to heed God. We can refuse to hear His messengers (and how unlikely a messenger they seem to be). We can refuse to follow Christ. We can refuse to seek His face.

In that case, we lose even the level we had risen up to before, in the last round, be it one, five, or ten. (I doubt that, in this case, the personal levels can be given to another - but what do I know? This present post is reflecting understanding I was recently given. It is a ladder that spirals round and round. If I continue, I will understand more and more about this stuff, about this parable's meanings.)

Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:14

But, if we do rise up, if we do seek the face of Christ -
If we do seek to remove all
jarring
contention
envying
lust for power and wealth

and

replace them with
compassion
loving kindness
willingnes to share what we can with the poor and needy
sacrifice all things to God (not to an institution)

then we will increase our talents.

To the degree that we rise up to do God's will (not some man's will, no matter what authority he professes to hold - and men like this are not confined to legal institutions), to that degree our talents increase.

And the more we increase here, the more we will have in the afterlife, so that in the next round instead of being the man with one talent, we may be the one with five or ten (and the one with five or ten could just as easily forfeit his talents in this round as the one with one. There is no guarantee of success. It depends upon us and the choices we make).

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
Doctrine and Covenants 130:18-19

And about that word talent? Even though we know it meant "money" in the old days, we seem to teach each other that it conveys the modern meaning, thus we think it is telling us to enlarge our talents to sing, draw, build cars, collect money, and so forth.

What if the Lord used the word "talent" because it connoted something valuable in that society (as it [money] also does in ours), something many people set their heart on. What if the transfer of meaning was supposed to be "something valuable" - something that gives life? (In the United States, not having money means no food, no shelter, few (if any) friends, being shunned, etc.)

In any case, those are the thoughts given to me on this subject. No doubt, the parable of the talents has varied and deeper meanings. No doubt, if I rise up to a higher level of intelligence, I will look back on this post and consider it on a toddler level at best.


The two version of the parable of the talents:

Luke 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant.  Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Matthew 25:14-30
 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Seek the Face of Christ - Literally

The restoration through Joseph Smith was not to create a New Testament church. It was to prepare a people to see the face of Christ, no matter what religion they professed. It was not to bring people into a legal corporation, to follow a myriad of regulations or be cast out.

This is what the Lord was attempting to do:

1  VERILY, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:1)

19  And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20  Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21  And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22  For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23  Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24  But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25  Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26  And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
Doctrine and Covenants 84

63  Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

64  Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;

65  And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.

66  Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

67  And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68  Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
Doctrine and Covenants 88

10  And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11  For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12  Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.
Doctrine and Covenants 67

Know. Not merely believe. An actual knowledge. It is possible. We should be seeing angels (and for a whole lot more than genealogy). We should be seeing the Lord. We should be allowing Him to prepare us to see the Father, then seeing Him, also.

Where are our fruits? Where are our secret acts of kindness? We should not be patting ourselves on the backs, telling each other in our publications and meetings how wonderful we are. We should be helping those who need our help, those we have the means to help. All of us can give something, even if it is just a listening ear and fervent prayers in behalf of the suffering.

Let us seek after our Lord, not letting anything come between us and Him. There need be no obstacles. Someone once said that obstacles are what one sees when one takes one's eyes off the goal. Let us keep our eyes on the goal and move forward, firmly, not looking back. Let us count the cost and move forward with the faith that if God asks us to sacrifice all (see Lectures on Faith), it will be worth it.

Nothing is more important than fidelity to our Lord and seeking His face. Not money, fame, power, belongings, friends, relatives, nor any organization we may align ourselves with. Let us cast aside our fears and pride. Let us face the enemy of all righteousness courageously. We are already in the battle.Don't let them shoot you in the back. Go forward fearlessly, seeking only truth no matter how much it may contradict what we currently believe.

Then, we shall begin to see the fruits. Then we shall see the miracles and gifts of the Spirit that don't need acrobatic techniques to convince us and others that they are genuine, bona fide miracles and gifts.

Critiquing the words of a true servant of God

The Lord Jesus Christ has asked one of His servants to preach via the written word and by mouth. As a result, the man has written several books. His most controversial work, Passing the Heavenly Gift, got him cast out of the church that professes to not only honor and worship the Man who gave him the words to speak, but this church professes to be His own true and living church. I do agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is still working with this church; what I cannot fathom is how those who profess to "know" Christ cannot recognize His words. How can one not hear the voice of the Master in so many of the words spoken and written by the servant?

Yes, PTHG is a painful, even horrid, book to read at times - but the conclusion reached at the end of the book is that the LDS church is still Jesus' church. He is still working with it. And the fact that it has been fulfilling scripture does not make the author who points that out apostate, nor a devil, nor a demon - nor misguided.

Recently, someone said this:

I have noticed numerous instances of problems related to logic, consistency of argument, rhetorical manipulations and other devices that I found troubling. When read with charity and a sincere desire for light and truth, these earlier works can be thrillingly inspiring, albeit flawed. No book is perfect, and we have the Holy Ghost to aid us in discerning light and truth.

The above problems I have noticed in DS's earlier works seem to have multiplied considerably in PTHG.

This person is a person who I believe is attempting to bring us poor "apostates" back to the fold. To some degree the person seems to be sincere, yet they do not "feel" right. My gift of discernment tells me this person is one to be wary of. My reply is below:

I can see this point of view if one does not recognize Denver as a biblical-type prophet of God. Much of what he says is colored by the fact that he has seen "the vision of all," that he has seen and spoken with both the Father and the Son, and that he has conversed with Joseph Smith jr.

We, lacking those experiences, view all that Denver has written from a carnal, Babylonic mindset. We believe we see flaws. We believe ourselves not only justified, but saintly when we point out what we believe to be errors based upon our mere pittance of experience and understanding. Surely Christ is tempted to laugh heartily at our vain and self-serving justifications of what He attempts to teach us through the servants He has called by His own voice. Surely we are puffed up and wise in our own sight. Surely we are so stiff-necked and high minded that we think we know more than God, thus considering ourselves virtuous when we reject truth in whole or in part.

My point in bringing this up is not to diss the person who wrote his/her feelings. My point is this: We humans think we know so much. If we view ourselves as learned, then we think we are wise. I see this all over. The person above is simply the most recent example I have come across.

We think ourselves wiser than God. We think we can parse His words, critique the manner in which His servants speak, find fault and flaws because what is said does not match our reasoning nor our understanding. Rather than being humble, rather than recognizing the voice of the Master, we would prefer to debate, criticize, and do anything that does not entail the possibility that we are in need of repentance, that we are - indeed - less than the dust of the earth, unworthy of salvation, unworthy of the time and effort that Christ puts into us again and again in the hopes that we will at last turn and face Him.

As for me, I am a sinner. I am less than the dust of the earth. I am unworthy of the incredible love and patience my Lord extends to me. I am overawed by the fact that He has deigned to speak through a servant who fears no man, no institution, no government. I am humbled by the fact that I had never supposed before: that the Lord often speaks through those who are not part of the accepted hierarchy. Yet, there it is in scriptures. Even Jesus had no ecclesiastical authority. He and the general authorities of His time would often butt heads.

We are just like the ancient Jews - whether in Jesus' time or in Jeremiah's or Isaiah's time. "If our days had been in those days," we opine, "we/I would have listened to the prophets. We/I would not have cast them out, nor persecuted them, nor killed them."

And what does Jesus have to say to our opining? This:

23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30  And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31  Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32  Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34  ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 23

 This scathing rebuke belongs to us, folks. It belongs to our self-satisfied generation, we who think it is impossible for us to go astray as long as we stay with the humans who lead a corporation even if they contradict the words of Christ as given through his prophet (Joseph Smith) who we are taught didn't really understand things like we do today - and that "new prophets supersede old prophets" and can even contradict the scriptures with impunity.

If we are the holy church of God we are, according to the scriptures, under condemnation. If we are not under condemnation we are not the holy church of God. This is according to Moroni who saw US.

35  Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.  But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36  And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37  For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38  O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?  Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?  Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39  Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40  Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41  Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Let us awake to our awful situation. The times of the gentiles is nearly fulfilled. We are about to lose what we think we have, and it will be given to the righteous descendants of Lehi, as promised by Jesus when He came and preached to them after His resurrection. Let us humble ourselves even to the dust of the earth. Let us view ourselves in our polluted state, with our tables covered with vomit (regurgitated, predigested food instead of the meat of the gospel).

Let us repent of our unbelief and turn to Christ, searching in humility and patience with our whole souls to see his His face in this life, for if we cannot stand in His presence now, what makes us think we can stand in His presence when He returns again with the hosts (Fathers) of heaven?

When God Asks for the Ultimate Sacrifice

Job. Abraham. Others. God either put into their lives something they greatly feared, or asked them to do something that - I believe - they greatly feared.

One of the parts on the path to God is that He will ask you to do something you do not want. It appears that it is something that is fearful to you. Abraham was going to be offered up as a human sacrifice. It is only natural that he should fear not only having such a thing done to him, but having it done to his beloved son. He had apparently already lost one son when Sarah kicked out the boy and his mother. He may have been fearful of losing his other son. Job plainly says that the thing he greatly feared had come upon him.

A friend and I were talking about Abraham's sacrifice. She pointed out that God wants us to face our fears and overcome them. That is the point of asking us to do the one thing we most don't want to do.

It is not so we can take a stand against God and say, "No. I'm going to be an adult here, and I will not do what you ask." (There is a thought process going around that Abraham lost his exaltation because he obeyed the command to offer up Isaac. Such a notion contradicts scripture.)

Neither is it to feed God's pride, or to show us and Him that we will bend to Him at all costs (though bending to Him at all costs is part of the process).

It is God helping us to over come all fear, all hesitation: Fear of what others will think about us or do to us. Fear of losing everything. Fear that your only son will not only be killed, but will be killed as a sacrifice.

Do we trust God? Do we trust that what He asks us to do is for our own benefit? Truly? Deep inside? Does God love us? Is He selfless in that love? Can He be trusted with all that we are, have, and believe?

It is a process of learning to trust God completely. When He asks for that one thing that we fear most, that one thing that we are most reluctant to put upon the altar, we are learning several things:

God always comes first. Not us. Not our families. Not our religion. Not our money nor our job. Not our reputation.
We learn to overcome all fear. After that experience, we fear nothing.
We learn to be selfless. Those who become eligible to be as God, must be as selfless as He is.

I'm sure there are many other things to be learned from this, however, this is all I have right now. Isn't scripture study incredibly interesting? Isn't there so much to learn and gain from looking deeply into what is there, and asking God to open up to us what we do not know?

Thoughts on 3 Nephi 20:39-46

I read 3 Nephi 20:39-46 this morning. I had some thoughts on these scriptures. I may be right. I may be wrong.

39  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that my people shall know my name; yea, in that day they shall know that I am he that doth speak.

Key word is "know." These people belong to the Lord because they know Him. They have seen and conversed with Him. They have felt His wounds. They know His name.

40  And then shall they say: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings unto them, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings unto them of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!

Then, shall these people have tremendous appreciation for the prophets who have seen Jesus and who have pointed the way to Him, those who have spoken with power, viewing their lives and safety as nothing in comparison with following the Lord and doing His bidding. They do not protect any person or organization by minimizing uncomfortable or unpopular truths. They speak plainly, and many people are angered by these men.

41  And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

These people desire to literally leave Babylon. The body bears the spirit. These people's spirits have been made holy. There are enough of them to physically leave.

42  For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

These people are not leaving because they were kicked out, nor because they were threatened with death if they stayed. They are not going out in haste nor by flight. They are protected by Deity in front and behind. No nasty surprises coming toward them. No secret attacks on their rear.

43  Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

Jesus was extolled, exalted, and is very high.

44  As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

According to Denver Snuffer's testimony of the atonement, Jesus received literal wounds from the suffering of every person on earth. It is impossible for anyone to be more marred than He, because He took on everyone's marring and healed from it. (See "Come Let Us Adore Him" - I don't recall the page, but it should be easy enough to find.)

45  So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Jesus' blood sprinkled upon the ground as He sweat great drops of blood. Not sure about the rest. Perhaps it is the Spirit that talks to them and teaches them, not their own experiences with anything of this earth.

46  Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me.  Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.

The things written above shall surely come. They will happen.

But Jesus had already died and was resurrected. In fact, He was the one speaking. Yes, He was. Was He exalted, extolled, and very high at the time of this visit with the Nephites? I don't know. But I do know that time means nothing to the Gods. Timing does, but time itself doesn't. I've read scriptures that speak of the future as though it had already happened.

In any case, I had these thoughts today as I read, and wanted to share.

Thoughts on the Atonement

I was thinking abut the atonement several days ago and wanting to write my thoughts down, but I haven't been able to figure out where or how to write my thoughts. Here and now is as good as anytime or anything. Remember, this came from my own ponderings. This is not official anything.

The atonement happens because we agreed to it. There is no magic about it. (Really, this is a different topic than my last post, though it overlaps somewhat.)

In the premortal world, a plan was presented. The problem was stated. We, as pure and holy beings, knew that if we made mistakes or outright rebelled we would feel so guilty that we could not bear to be in our Father's presence. But we knew we would make mistakes. So, how could we go out on this venture and have a chance to return after the venture was over?

Well, there was a plan presented by the Father God. He said, “I can send one down who is part God and part mortal. Because he has a foot in both worlds, he can bring the two together. He will be the liaison. But I will need to send someone who has been tried and found faithful because - number one - he needs to be without sin. Being part God will genetically predispose him to goodness but the core of his inner soul needs to be such that he will not sin. Your collective faith will do the rest.

“Second, if you agree to give him your sins and your pains, your regrets and your guilt, I will decree a law that such will be so. It will be binding because of the law of common consent. But it will be excruciatingly painful, nearly impossible to bear, even for a God-hybrid. So, we need someone we can trust one hundred percent to go through with it.”

Here, I'm going to skip to what the Pearl of Great Price (Abraham 3:27) calls the second answer, though it is possible that the second answer came in jealousy over the firmness of the volunteer who answered first.

There was a stir among the people of the children of the Father-God as they discussed this. Some didn't think it was fair to make one of their siblings the recipient of everyone's guilt and pain, especially if he was innocent of any guilt at all. Others felt guilty already for causing a sibling so much pain, even though it hadn't happened yet. Others saw that there was really no other way for the problem to be solved.

After much discussion, one spoke up -

“It isn't fair or right that one among us should suffer so unjustly for us all.”

Some nodded and verbalized their agreement.

“I have a better plan,” he said.

“What is it?” asked the Father God.

“I'll go down and be the savior. I will make it so that not one soul will be lost. No one will have to feel guilty over causing excessive pain and trauma to an innocent sibling because sin and error will simply not exist.”

“How do you propose to do that?” asked the Father God.

“When we put the veil of forgetfulness over our eyes, we will also make ourselves pliable and compliant to my will. They will always be obedient because they will be incapable of thinking or speaking or acting in any other way.”

“Your will?”

“Of course. As the author of the plan, the glory is mine. My brilliant plan will prevent the loss of even one soul. I should have the Father's glory because my plan is better. We've got to be progressive here - and compassionate.”

“What do you think of that plan?” the Father God asked his children.

The children discussed it.

“How will we be able to learn and grow and become like Father if we are forced to obey?” asked one.

“Or if we are not given the freedom to even think?” asked another.

“How can we learn from our mistakes if we don't make any?” asked still another.

“Look, you're not going to be forced to do anything,” the plan-giver replied. “Force implies choice. You won't be forced. You will have chosen here, therefor your choice has not been trampled upon.

“Listen, you won't want to rebel or do anything wrong. That's the beauty of it. Force doesn't even enter the picture. Not only will all of you return to Father, but you won't be the cause of excruciating pain to anyone. Do you really want Father to slaughter one of his children because you were too selfish to accept my plan?”

There was more discussion. Finally a vote was taken. The majority chose the Father's plan.

“So, who shall I send?” he asked again.

“Me, of course,” said the plan-giver, planning to push his plan through after he was chosen. “As the eldest it is my right.”

“I will go,” said another. “Send me.”

“What of my glory?” asked the Father God.

“I don't want your glory. I want what is best for my siblings. I want them to be free to direct their lives, and to be able to change course when they screw up.”

“But youare not the eldest,” pointed out the plan-giver.¹“Thus you have no right to be the savior of your siblings.”

“I will send you,” said the Father God.

“Me?” asked the plan-giver.

“No,”said the Father. “I am sending the one who will sacrifice himself.”

The plan-giver didn't take that too well. The rejection agitated in his soul. Eventually, he rebelled and decided to take his Father's kingdom by force. That didn't work out too well for him, and for his efforts, he was cast out of the kingdom.

So, the atonement is wrought by a law given with our common consent. Our very hearts are intertwined in the way the atonement works, with how it was set up.

When the judgment day arrives, we will not be ignorant of our part in choosing the plan that included a sacrificial offering. If we have chosen to give all of our sins to Christ, we will have honored our commitment to the plan and we will know it. The honor in our souls (in spite of what we may have done or become here) is what holds up the plan. The law that was made during the planning to which we gave our common consent still lives in each of our hearts.

This has not been a very good description of what I have been pondering. The gist is -

1. We knew that we would feel too horrible to return to God's presence if we made even one mistake.
   
   
2. We agreed to the sacrifice. Without our common consent, it would not have been put in place.
   
   
3. The faith of the faithful, the fact that Jesus was a God hybrid, and Jesus' own natural personality are what made it possible for him to live without sin and to complete the atonement.
   
   
4. Putting our sins on Jesus was something we chose, that's why it is possible to put our sins on him. We simply re-choose what we once chose. Very simple. Too simple for those who want to think of the atonement as something too deep and too mysterious to understand.

The mechanics of how the sins were put upon Jesus is something I have not yet understood.

I wish I could say more, but I am unable to put the rest of my ponderings into words, even in my own mind. I am hoping that my bumbling way to express what little I can is helpful and uplifting to someone, though.

1 I get this idea from the scriptures where it is often the younger brother who rules over the elder, even in the case of twins like Esau and Jacob. For the purpose of my thoughts, the scenario is that they are twins, with one just barely older than the other - though birth order as we know it probably does not exist in heaven. The plan-giver probably lost the “Firstborn status” he would have had if he had been chosen.

Thoughts on King Benjamin's Sermon

I was studying Mosiah 3:25 - Mosiah 4:1 and received what seemed to me to be tremendous insights. (Remember, there's a disclaimer somewhere on this site that my posts are my own opinions.)

I'm going to put my notes below, then try to clean it up a little so that, hopefully, it will make sense.

If's one's works are evil, that person is consigned (not sure what that means) to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations. Their view, their guilt is the punishment. This view causes them to shrink from God's presence - And they shrink into a state of misery and endless woe - whence they can no more return!

The idea that people can or will somehow advance from a lower kindgom to a higher is shot out of the water here. If they feel guilt - shrinking from God's presence - it's a “no more return” (to God) thing.

And they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

In other words, it was their own doing. They cannot blame others or circumstances no matter how bad they were. Someone growing up in hell, if taught the truth by the Spirit, is just as accountable as someone growing up in righteousness who has been taught by the Spirit.

Thisis drinking out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice cannot deny! Why can it not deny it? Because YOUknowyou are guilty! It has absolutely nothingto do with “little intelligences” that refuse to allow God to let us advance. There are no little intelligences telling God, “Uh, uh, You held usback.”

No, it is allwithin each soul. Wehave a sense of justice within us. When we are brought to ourselves again, and it is everlastingly too late, weare the ones who cannot deny that justice was done. We know, perfectly well, that we are not worthy, because we rejected mercy when it was extended to us.

We cannot deny God's justice because it is also our justice. We are part of God. We have forgotten that here. We think we can hide from God. We think we can hide our sins. But we cannot. The sins are written in our souls. If we have not repented and taken the Holy Spirit for our guide, wewill know it. And because weknow it, we will shrink from God, feeling excruciating pain at being in His presence - and forever carrying the guilt and torment. It may be allayed somewhat as we move far away from God, but being separated from God is hell. So, then, where are we?

Mercy NEVERhas claim again. Neverforever.You cannot get more plain than that.

Their torment is asa lake of fire and brimstone. There is no realfire, no realbrimstone. The comparison is a figure of speech from something long forgotten, though some scholars claim to know where it came from.

It is a figure of speech, originated by those who sawsuch a lake (or lakes). They sawhow terrible the fire, brimstone, and smoke was.

Now, I understand that the idea was supposed to have originated from a group of evil men who prepared the fires to torment and kill others, but I submit that this idea may be more ancient than that. I submit that this goes to the root of the myths about the violent and angry gods such as Venus, Mercury, Mars, and so forth, those planets that once terrorized the earth.

And what do we teach each other today? We teach about the three degrees of glory and how most people will go to a degree of glory. Any torment before reaching one of those is glossed over or ignored. Few of us will be consigned to actual hell, we say. And some few even teach that there is progression from kingdom to kingdom. Others teach that all those in outer darkness, whether with a body or without, will have a total dissolution into intelligences and have another go at becoming Gods.

Some teach that we keep coming back to this life over and over again until we either give up or get it right. They claim that this is notreincarnation. But this view is refuted in the Book of Mormon. Thislife(not some past or future lives) is the day in which to repent and produce fruit. Besides that, our tendency to act in a certain way will remain - whether we are totally dismantled and put together again or whether we come back to this life six hundred times. How we act will not change. One life is enough to show who and what we really are. And that is the purpose of this life after all: To show us what and who we really are when we are wearing blinders.

“There is no hell.” “There is no devil.” And thus he whispereth in their ears and draws them down to hell with his flaxen cords that have turned into chains of iron.

I don't think we take the opportunities offered is in this life seriously enough. We think we'll get another chance in the spirit world. We think we'll magically want what we either did not want or actively fought against here - so we blithely assume, suppose, and hope that unhearing or antagonistic loved ones (or even ourselves) will magically transform once they are dead. Some truths, apparently, are too hard for people to bear.

I had an experience that showed me this truth (that we do not change once we hit the spirit world).

I was working for a man who had - oh, I'm thinking it was Musser, but I'm not sure - anyway this person's journal (on small floppy disks), who was a leader in what eventually became the FLDS church. When I worked for the man, he was blind and could not do his own typing, so he hired me to help him. He wanted me to type the journals for him.

As I typed, I came across something I could not decipher. I didn't know what to do, so I asked the man who wrote the journals to tell me what the words said. I thought, living in the spirit world and having his eyes opened, he would have a different view of polygamy and all that. He did not. He was very eager to tell me what the words were that I could not read. In fact, he was very eager for me to understand where he was coming from. He was very enthusiastic as I typed the journal. He was pleased that it was being done, even though it would not further his purposes. He never tormented my dreams or anything. He was respectful of me, but I could sense the eagernesswith which he shared the missing words.

I promise you: We do not change simply because we have died.

Back to my notes: Benjamin has finished telling the people what the angel told him to say to them. He looks at the people and sees they have fallen to the earth. They have understood his words. They have understood that they don't get to come back over and over again (whether from scratch, as an intelligence, or as a spirit being). They have understood that theywill be the condemner of themselves. And so on.

They know full well what they are. They can and do clearlysee their own fallen state. They are carnal. They are sensual. They are devilish. They see the natural tendency to deny justice and concentrate on mercy - receiving mercy without following the laws that lead to mercy. They are less than the dust of the earth, because the dust of the earth obeys God willingly, never putting it off, never refusing, never complaining.

Dowe realize this stuff? Do I realize this? Am Iguilty of any of these things (being carnal, sensual, devilish, unwilling to always obey every single thing God tells me to do)?Of course I am. I admit it freely. But my desire is to change until I am not guilty. I amchanging. I can feel it, and I can see it.

This book (the Book of Mormon) was written for us, those who read it and those believe it. It was written for me. It is a warning to us so that we will not lift up our eyes in hell, being in torment. It is a handbook to teach us how to come to Christ, until we are redeemed from the fall and brought back into God's presence. That means wehad better scrupulously study this book. Ihad better do so.

It was written to help us escape from hell. How was that again? [This is referring to previous parts of Benjamin's sermon.]

Believe in Jesus Christ. Understand that He lived and what He did. Understand your need to repent. Understand that little children and the ignorant are covered by the atonement. Understand that it is youwho are the catalyst for the power of the atonement in your life. Understand that youare the marker and the judge and you cannotdeceive yourself at the last day, let alone deceive God.

Understand that the punishment and torment is real. Don't minimize it. Don't ignore it. Understand that God sends holy prophets (and they may not be who you expect them to be) to warn us and to teach us. But, ultimately, it is between us and God, not between us an anyman.

Understand that Jesus is the onlyway. It is in yoursoul that justice will be satisfied. Youwill judge yourself. What about all the other judges? 12 original apostles, 12 disciples, etc. I think there is more to that information than meets the casual eye. They will not condemn us. Neither will Christ. We will. We are less subservient than we think.

[Note: if you want scripture references for what I've written that is not in Benjamin's speech, search the Book of Mormon; it's in there.]

Women and Veils

There's an interesting discussion on LDSFF about women and veils (you have to be a member, not only of LDSFF, but of the subforum of Seeking the Heavenly Gift to see this thread). After reading the thread, I feel inclined to write my perception of this idea (if I remember correctly, it was a user called paper face who brought this up originally).

In the temple, there are two veils:

One is where a person symbolically enters the presence of the Lord.

The other is worn by the women in the audience.

This veil worn by women is not to symbolize their inferior status to men, not by a long shot.

The veil in the temple represents stepping into the presence of God from this life (and in this life - this life. The veil in the temple does not represent the veil of death, because we can and should enter the presence of God in this life).

At the bottom of this post, I include some scriptures that speak plainly of or hint of seeing Christ in the flesh (in our flesh).

The veil on the women represent the veil separating pre-mortal life from this life. We step out of the presence of God and into mortality through our mothers, thus women are the guardians of the veil on one side and Christ is the guardian of the veil at the other side. It is a chiasmus.

Ideally, as the scriptures say, we part the veil between us and Christ before mortal death (symbolized by not discarding the item that represents our imperfect, mortal selves).

There is much symbolism in the temple that we can pass by if we are focused on being offended or insulted because we view ourselves of the "inferior" sex. Also, there is much we pass by until someone with insight brings it to our attention, like this was brought to mine.

We are here to help each other; we are here to lift each other up. We are here to become one.

Below are the scriptures I promised.

 VERILY, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am
Doctrine and Covenants Section 93:1 (See also verse 2)

19  And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
20  Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21  And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22  For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23  Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24  But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
25  Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
Doctrine and Covenants 84

10  And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.
11  For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.
12  Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.
13  Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.
Doctrine and Covenants 67

1  AND now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my first-born in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness.  And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.
2  Nevertheless, Jacob, my first-born in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.
3  Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God.  Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.
4  And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.  And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.
2 Nephi 2

6  Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh.  And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 32:6

10  And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
Pearl of Great Price Moses 5:10


1  THE words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,
2  And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.
10  And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.
11  But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.
31  And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face.  And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things.  Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
Moses 1

6  And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger.  And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.
7  And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?
8  And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
9  And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger.  Sawest thou more than this?
10  And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.
11  And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12  And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13  And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14  Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.  Behold, I am Jesus Christ.  I am the Father and the Son.  In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15  And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.  Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image?  Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16  Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
17  And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
18  And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.
19  And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20  Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.
Ether 3

6  For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7  And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
13  Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14  Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15  Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Ether 4