Random Thoughts on Covenants and Birth

This morning, as I was praying and trying to sort out my mind in an effort to stop following darkness (the sins are sins of thought), rather randomly Denver Snuffer's comments in his latest (temple) fireside came to my mind in conjunction with my first baby.

First, this is what he said (1:15:24-1:16:07): "And I can tell you that covenants traditionally involve cutting - And covenants in the Old Testament involve the shedding of blood - And covenants with our Lord at some point, in some contexts, with some reaches, require that we suffer."

[sidenote: In pioneer times, the marks cut into a person's clothing were not sewn on.]

He was in the midst of speaking of his own suffering, of operations performed that involved the flesh being cut, as well as blood being shed.

When I was pregnant for the tirst time, I decided this was my "tithing child". This was the child I would dedicate to the Lord, according to the law of sacrifice in the Old Testament (as I understand it).

According to the Bible:

(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
(New Testament | Luke 2:23)

 My child ended up being female. In fact, some months before she was born, she emphatically told me, "Don't call me a boy!" In my mind and heart, though, I did not waver in devoting her to the Lord. I'm sure I broke some ancient Jewish law because I was female and I was offering up my child as a covenant to God, and the child ended up being female. I didn't even know there would be a "God's part" to this gift, to this covenant. As far as I know, there is none.

She was a home birth-turned-c-section. Because I did not feel safe where I was laboring (for reasons I won't go into here), my body would not let her out, so we went to the hospital after many hours. She was breech. Had the medical community not been fearful (or is that "terrified") of delivering a breech naturally, she would have been born vaginally, because as soon as we got to the hospital my body started pushing her out.

In any case, she was a c-section. A cesarean. That means they cut open my belly. They sliced open my skin, then my muscles, and then my uterus, then they pulled her out through the cuts. I was awake for this but did not have to watch it, thank goodness.

My firstborn, offered as a "living sacrifice" to God, was offered via the cutting of the person who gave the gift. (The child, herself, seemed to have no problem with this. They showed her to me right after they pulled her out. She was checking things out, looking at this new place she was in to see what it was like. We had an incredible link from the beginning, which diminished the more she let go of the spiritual world, the more she became incorporated into this world.)

It involved cutting. It involved hellish pain, the likes of which I had never experienced before (physically), and never have since (I gave birth vaginally twice after, with a painkiller for about an hour for my middle child, no painkiller for the last child). It involved hellish pain after, because I did not want to bother the nurses and waited too long to ask for a painkiller after I was in my room. By the time I was hurting, it was the shift change and they could not give me a painkiller until they were through giving reports to the new shift. By then, I was in agony again, a fiery agony this time.

I almost did not have my next baby. I believed to my core that God hated women, or that He had a particular grudge against me, personally. The lie that a woman forgets the pain and "it is all worth it" came up in my face at least once by a well-meaning woman who had obviously experienced this forgetting. Even now, I have not forgotten that hell. But I still dedicated the child to God.

And I decided that I needed to give God a chance to prove that He did not hate me, that He did not hate women, and I let myself get pregnant again to see what He would do, if anything. (This took a great deal of courage. Also, I had gathered my children around me when I was about to be married and told them to prepare to be born, so I felt a commitment to have these children. Three - two girls and a boy - had gathered close to me, and one boy was farther off, who I have not had yet. Though God gave Isaac to Sarah at 99 years old, I do not know if God will give such a gift to this son and myself. I have nearly 45 years to see, though. *smilie*)

It was illegal in my state for a midwife to attend a post-cesarean mother, hence home birth was out of the question (I had not heard of freebirth at the time). I ended up going to Utah. Salt Lake City, actually, where I ended up with the most incredible doctor (Dr. Pease) and a very good hospital (Holy Cross Hospital between North and South Temple and between 10th and 11th East). There was no question in my mind that I'd have a vaginal birth. The cut I'd had was the kind that allows a "trial" labor, but I innocently ignored the word "try".

I did not know I was "supposed" to rip apart. I had no clue that I was "supposed" to explode inside. Neither the woman who pulled out my oldest daughter nor Dr. Pease gave me a reason to fear. The second labor was less than three hours from start to finish. Had someone been there who would have told me that my feelings of "I can't do this," was a sign that the baby was about ready to be pushed into the world and to hang in there at least 15 more minutes, I would not have asked for a painkiller, and the pushing stage would have been 1/2 an hour instead of one hour. (They warned me that the painkiller might not take effect until after the baby had been born, but I did not recognize that as a statement that the baby was about to be born.)

I was also surprised at the rest between contractions at the beginning. My last experience had been one long pain that was somewhat tolerable at the beginning turning into something so bad long before the 13 hours were over that it was more than I could endure. (I was very uncomfortable with how this was worded before. It was true, but it "felt" like it was offensive or uncomfortable to someone.)

I recognized that God did His part very well in the second birth, considering my total lack of faith and considering my very dark thoughts about Him. In fact, right after second daughter was born, I told a nurse I wanted to have another baby, I wanted to labor and birth again. She discouraged that idea. lol

Actually, God was incredibly loving and patient to not punish me for my honest beliefs about Him. Any human I know personally would have been swift to punish such insubordination, such heresy, such blasphemy as I thought and believed in my heart of hearts.

So, now, as I struggle with losing battles against darkness and wondering if it is even worth trying to fight for control of my own thoughts, my mind turns to this experience and I wonder what, if anything, it all means. I wonder if it was a covenant, - and if it was, was the covenant sealed by the shedding of my blood and by my incredible suffering. And if  so, what was God's part in it. What was it He was supposed to give?

Women and Veils

There's an interesting discussion on LDSFF about women and veils (you have to be a member, not only of LDSFF, but of the subforum of Seeking the Heavenly Gift to see this thread). After reading the thread, I feel inclined to write my perception of this idea (if I remember correctly, it was a user called paper face who brought this up originally).

In the temple, there are two veils:

One is where a person symbolically enters the presence of the Lord.

The other is worn by the women in the audience.

This veil worn by women is not to symbolize their inferior status to men, not by a long shot.

The veil in the temple represents stepping into the presence of God from this life (and in this life - this life. The veil in the temple does not represent the veil of death, because we can and should enter the presence of God in this life).

At the bottom of this post, I include some scriptures that speak plainly of or hint of seeing Christ in the flesh (in our flesh).

The veil on the women represent the veil separating pre-mortal life from this life. We step out of the presence of God and into mortality through our mothers, thus women are the guardians of the veil on one side and Christ is the guardian of the veil at the other side. It is a chiasmus.

Ideally, as the scriptures say, we part the veil between us and Christ before mortal death (symbolized by not discarding the item that represents our imperfect, mortal selves).

There is much symbolism in the temple that we can pass by if we are focused on being offended or insulted because we view ourselves of the "inferior" sex. Also, there is much we pass by until someone with insight brings it to our attention, like this was brought to mine.

We are here to help each other; we are here to lift each other up. We are here to become one.

Below are the scriptures I promised.

 VERILY, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am
Doctrine and Covenants Section 93:1 (See also verse 2)

19  And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
20  Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21  And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22  For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23  Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24  But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
25  Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
Doctrine and Covenants 84

10  And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.
11  For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.
12  Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.
13  Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.
Doctrine and Covenants 67

1  AND now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my first-born in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness.  And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.
2  Nevertheless, Jacob, my first-born in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.
3  Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God.  Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.
4  And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.  And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.
2 Nephi 2

6  Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh.  And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 32:6

10  And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
Pearl of Great Price Moses 5:10


1  THE words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,
2  And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.
10  And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.
11  But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.
31  And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face.  And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things.  Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
Moses 1

6  And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger.  And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.
7  And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?
8  And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
9  And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger.  Sawest thou more than this?
10  And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.
11  And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12  And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13  And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14  Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.  Behold, I am Jesus Christ.  I am the Father and the Son.  In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15  And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.  Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image?  Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16  Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
17  And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
18  And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.
19  And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20  Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.
Ether 3

6  For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7  And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
13  Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14  Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15  Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Ether 4

Freedom to Choose

So, I've been thinking about freedom to choose. The adversary has hidden and covered up our freedom to choose, thus we are blind-sided by lies. Teachings of society, of government, of parents, of schools, of religion control us to varying degrees. Our own experiences and wounds teach us lies, put into us a lack of knowing how free to choose we really are.

For example, if I'm feeling negative about someone or something, I can choose to feel differently. If I choose to – Well, if I've been taught that some things just “are” -

like certain things (health-wise) cannot be healed

like childbirth has to hurt

like unassisted birth is dangerous (what did Eve do?)

like leaders are always right

like women should be subservient to men (or vice versa)

like life has to be painful

like we have a God-given mandate to condemn and reject those who sin differently than we do

like God is a harsh taskmaster

like we have to suffer because we can learn in no other way

like we understand the gospel better today than Joseph Smith did

like Joseph Smith lived polygamy but pretended not to

like we are humongously more intelligent than those who lived thousands of years ago

(and I could go on and on)

Well, if I believe all of that I just might not realize that all of those things are choices, not truths.

Who says I cannot humble my own self and learn God's ways without going through hell to learn and to become?

Who says that birth is inherently dangerous and painful?

Who says that I have to live the ways of Babylon, even while it surrounds me?

Who says I cannot be perfect in this life? Isn't the Atonement there to create perfection in us?

You can cite general authorities, medical authorities, scientific authorities, scriptures, and movie stars but that does not mean I have to believe you – or them. The only thing I should believe completely are the words spoken to me via the Holy Ghost. Even pure scripture can be misunderstood and misapplied.

We are supposed to be preparing to live in Zion, for heaven's sake! We should not be living as people have lived for thousands of years! The society we should be living in has perfect health. It has righteousness so perfect that Satan has no power. Everything we ask God to do, He does. We see Jesus often. In fact, no one says, “Know ye the Lord, because they all know him.”

No doctors. No lawyers. No police. No government officials. No church hierarchy that stands between us and God. No locks. No slave labor giving us cars, computers, and other toys. No fear in birth or in death.

We cannot magically and instantly become the type of person who can live in that society when the end of this era comes. By then, it is too late. Each of us who wants to be there has to be that person now! Otherwise, we will die with the wicked when that sort of living is ushered in by Christ and his angels. Now!

Change the paradigm and you've changed the person. Change the person and you've changed those around him/her (some may choose to leave because they are uncomfortable around a person with such an unusual and strange perception),

We are so steeped in Babylon that we don't even know that something else exists. And when it comes to our attention, we often reject it because such radical change makes us nervous; it frightens us.

I have seen people who are determined that, in the Millennium of Peace, there will be cars, computers, electricity, airplanes, and all of the other comforts and toys we have today. Who is going to be the slave labor for these things? Why would any of these things be necessary?

I submit that the non-Babylonian way to live is very simple. We get places by walking. If we need to travel a long distance, we go by Light (notice the words that sometimes accompany descriptions of seeing Jesus, Moroni, other angels). If we wear clothing at all, I expect it will be very simple – and easy enough for anyone to make. But, remember, we are supposed to be ultimately entering a garden in Eden state; they wore no clothing, and there is no mention of a house, either.

To our eyes, the ideal way to live may very well look extremely primitive. We might turn away because we refuse to believe in the absence of

money

razors

jewelry

vehicles

airplanes

fine clothing

fancy shoes

suits and ties

briefcases

electricity

fine buildings

formal schools of learning

formal, organized religion with lots of rules

computers

radios

washing machines

ipods

and so forth.

We are so steeped in Babylon that not only do we not have a clue that a better way exists, but if or when we see the other way, we often reject it out-of-hand. When are we going to turn to God with all of our hearts and souls and be willing to give up all we have and believe so that we may enter Zion? For myself, I am attempting to leave Babylon behind. I am actively doing all I can to open up my willingness to give up every Babylonian paradigm that is in me.

Pain in Childbirth?

Scripturally speaking, is there a warrant for believing pain in childbirth is inevitable? "In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" and "in sorrow shalt thou eat [the food of the ground] all the days of thy life" [Genesis 3:16-17]. So, if it means women birth in agony, it follows that men should be in agony every time they take a bite of food and try to swallow it. Let's look at assorted versions of this scripture:

From the LDS King James Version:

16 Unto the ^awoman he said, I will greatly ^bmultiply thy ^csorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth ^dchildren; and thy desire shall be to thy ^ehusband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy ^awife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: ^bcursed is the ground for thy sake; in ^csorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Take note of the footnote: It is Adam's footnote that says "sorrow" could also be translated "travail" or "pain".

Footnote 16c - HEB increase thy discomfort and thy size (i.e., in the condition and process of pregnancy)

Footnote 17c HEB travail, pain

- - -

Genesis 3:16-17 on lds.org has no footnote for Eve's "sorrow" and the footnote for Adam's "sorrow" is - HEB travail, pain

- - -

The Pearl of Great Price, which should be the best for LDS students to go by, says the following:

Moses 4:22-23:

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In ^asorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy ^bhusband, and he shall rule over thee. 23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, ^acursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in ^bsorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

The footnotes for "sorrow" only refer one to Genesis and to the Topical Guide.

- - -

Apostolic Bible Polyglot w/Strong's Numbers:

(Gen 3:16) And^G2532 to the^G3588 woman^G1135 he said,^G2036 In multiplying^G4129 I will multiply^{G4129 G3588} your distresses,^{G3077 G1473} and^{G2532 G3588} your moanings.^{G4726 G1473} In^G1722 distresses^G3077 you will bear^G5088 children,^G5043 and^G2532 to^{G4314 G3588} your husband^{G435 G1473 G3588} your submission,^{G654.1 G1473} and^G2532 he^G1473 will dominate you.^{G1473 G2961}

(Gen 3:17) And to ^{G3588 G1161} Adam^G* he said,^G2036 Because^G3754 you hearkened to^G191 the^G3588 voice^{G5456 G3588} of your wife,^{G1135 G1473} and^G2532 ate^G2068 from^G575 the^G3588 tree^G3586 of which^G3739 I gave charge^G1781 to you, saying ,^G1473 This^G3778 alone^G3441 you are not^G3361 to eat^G2068 from^G575 it --^G1473 and you ate;^G2068 accursed^G1944 is the^G3588 land^G1093 among^{G1722 G3588} your works;^{G2041 G1473} in^G1722 distresses^G3077 you will eat^G2068 it^G1473 all^G3956 the^G3588 days^{G2250 G3588} of your life.^{G2222 G1473}

G3077 Distresses – lupè loo'-pay – Apparently a primary word; sadness: -grief, grievous, + grudgingly, heaviness, sorrow. Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries. Same meaning for both Adam and Eve.

- - -

Brenton's English Septuagint:

Gen 3:17 And to the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pains and thy groanings; in pain thou shalt bring forth children, and thy submission shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3:18 And to Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and eaten of the tree concerning which I charged thee of it only not to eat--of that thou hast eaten, cursed is the ground in thy labours, in pain shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

- - -

Geneva Bible 1587:

Gen 3:16 Vnto the woman he said, I will greatly increase thy sorowes, and thy conceptions. In sorowe shalt thou bring foorth children, and thy desire shalbe subiect to thine husbande, and he shall rule ouer thee.

Gen 3:17 Also to Adam he said, Because thou hast obeyed the voyce of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, (whereof I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eate of it) cursed is the earth for thy sake: in sorowe shalt thou eate of it all the dayes of thy life.

- - -

King James Version 1611:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorowe and thy conception. In sorow thou shalt bring forth children: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and hee shall rule ouer thee.

Gen 3:17 And vnto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened vnto the voyce of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commaunded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eate of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake: in sorow shalt thou eate of it all the dayes of thy life.

There are newer versions. I tried to find what I thought would be closest to the original. Some newer ones say the word for Adam (sorrow) and the word for Eve (sorrow) are different; however, I believe that was changed because of the human culture's belief that childbearing should be much more painful than eating.

Question: What would our culture be like if someone had decided a few thousand years ago that it was the eating that would be painful and the childbirth that would be joyful?