Suffering Poor vs 100B Dollars Sitting Around Collecting Interest

I honestly believe "the poor of the Lord's people" are all the poor on the planet, especially those who die from malnutrition or bad water.

The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

    Isaiah 3:14-15
    2 Ne 13:14-15

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.

    Mormon 5:22 - 24

And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

    1 Nephi 22:13

They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

    Doctrine and Covenants Section 1:16

AND the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves!  should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
    
And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
    
My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
    
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
    
Old Testament | Ezekiel 34:1 - 11

Scripture Changes - Updated

At the bottom of this post is the update.

In Joseph Smith's version of the Book of Mormon that I use, it says this:

. . . if the time should come that the voice of this people should cause iniquity . . . they would be ripe for destruction . . . . 

In the present Latter-day Saint (Mormon) version of the Book of Mormon, the same verse says this:

. . . if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity . . . they would be ripe for destruction . . . . 

It seems to me there is an important difference between causing iniquity and choosing it.

Choosing it, to me, implies that a choice is laid before you. Do you want this or this? Whereas causing implies, to me, creating it. "Hey, I've got this great idea! Let's punish the homeless and forbid begging." or "We really should enact more laws to take away people's choices. They're too stupid to know how to make their own decisions." or something else that the "voice of the people" came up with.




Update 12/2/2018 after 1:30 p.m.
The comments spurred me to do research when I had time to get on my computer, however, the two scriptures posted above (and linked) do say what I said they said (can be verified by clicking on the links). I double checked when I wrote the post, then checked again when comments said all of the editions of the Book of Mormon said "choose".

I searched an online 1830 Book of Mormon and discovered that it did, indeed, say "choose". This is the link to the book. You'll have to do your own search in it because it's a pdf, not a web page. Also, here is a link to a pdf of textual changes made to the Book of Mormon and the change I noticed is not in there. And here is a link to an 1840 copy of the Book of Mormon (left page, upper third of the page). It, also, says "choose". Now, I am thinking that the change was one of the few changes Denver Snuffer made (with permission or at the direction of the Lord, as I understand that the changes he did make were not his own desires). If the change was made by Denver at the Lord's direction, I still hold that the change is from God, and it definitely gives a clearer view of what the scriptures were trying to convey.

Useful links:
Scriptures Project - errors
Scriptures Project - Tracking Changes
(Posted March 2018) Scriptures Completed

Rejoice!

For the purposes of this discussion "belief in Christ"=following the doctrine of Christ as explained in the Book of Mormon.

Have you received "church discipline" for your belief in Christ? Have you been excommunicated or pressured to resign for your belief in Christ? Has your spouse reported you to a bishop or stake president because of your belief in Christ? Has your spouse divorced you (spurred on by the advice of a bishop to do so, or on their own) because of your belief in Christ? Do neighbors shun you? Do former friends ignore you, avoid you, bear testimony of men to you, or talk about your "apostasy" to each other - because of your belief in Christ? Has your family essentially disowned you because of your belief in Christ?

Rejoice!

As written in both the Book of Mormon and the New Testament:

And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake; For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.
3 Nephi 12:11-12

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12

Also notice this in verse 8 of both chapters:

And blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Note that there is no caveat declaring that this experience has to happen in some other life, after death, at judgment day.

. . . every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am. [emphasis added]
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS version) 93:1

 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things. Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS version) 88:68

And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual. For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God. Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS version) 67:10-12

Question: Is this promise only to those men "ordained to the ministry"? Is it only for those men Joseph was preaching the word of the Lord to? Or is this promise to everyone?


Was Nephi speaking only to those "ordained to the ministry" when he said these things:

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter.  For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.  Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh.  And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

You. You plural? You singular? Nephi wasn't talking to us, right? Only to his descendants, referring to Jesus' future visit to some tiny portion of Nephi's descendants. That's why he saw us, right? So that he would not keep a record addressing us, right? Nephi's not plain. No way does he speak in plainness - because, then, he just might be saying something like this:

Follow Christ with full purpose of heart. Repent. Be baptized. Then you'll have a remission of sins, and baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost (in other words, they are two different things). Then Christ will tell you what to do. These words of Christ come by the power of the Holy Ghost. To you. Not through some man, some priest, some bishop, someone "in authority." Then, at some point after you have received this doctrine, Christ will manifest himself in the flesh - to you. Flesh. You (singular).

If only those "ordained to the ministry" can see Christ in this life, then I submit that only those "ordained to the ministry" are allowed to repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and receive the baptism of fire. Sounds silly to me.

Blessed are you when you are persecuted for Christ's sake, when you are disbelieved, mocked, cast out, lose your marriage and/or your family, lose your job, are shunned, and/or treated as though you had leprosy because you recognized the Lord's voice through a true messenger, recognized a true prophet of God, and were baptized as a result of your belief in Christ, your faith in Christ. Not faith in the messenger, but in the Son of God.

Rejoice! For so persecuted they those who believed in Christ and his doctrine for centuries upon centuries. For so persecuted they who were cast out from formally organized churches. For so persecuted they who chose to follow the Lord instead of some man or some woman or some "sighted" person.

This earth is waxing old. Destructions are happening and I suspect they will continue to happen. Praise God and stand firm in faith in HIM and only him. He is more important than your job, than your family*, than your ecclesiastical leaders. More important than anything else in this life.

Rejoice!

*This is not a license to cast away your spouse, children, or other relatives. Be an example of a true follower of Christ. Make it difficult for them to cast you off because of your love and patience and genuine long-suffering toward them. Seek not only Christ, but also seek the pure love of Christ.

My Testimony of Joseph Smith

I belong to a forum whose posts are open for anyone to read so I see no harm in quoting a post someone made there (they did not use their real name and I know nothing about who they really are). It was an opening post and included questions. I am quoting it and I am quoting my reply (which took two posts, then I added a postscript comment).

I view my reply as my testimony of truth. Because of that, I am making a blog post out of it.

1smartdog wrote:
From time to time I will hear or read about someone who claims to know all the dirty church history and yet believes. Frankly I do not know what to make of these people. Sometimes I think they really do not know everything, maybe some superficial stuff, but they have not explored it all. It is one thing to gloss over the BofA or polygamy, but when you dive deep you realize the very foundational stories you were taught all your life are suspect at best or more likely complete fabrications.

How does one stare so directly into the light and yet ignore it at the same time. For me and I think most people when they find the truth it takes but a short time to realize it is all a big lie. But there seems to be those few who can compartmentalize it enough to believe in spite of it all. What gives with this? Are they so vested in belief that nothing to the contrary can be contemplated? I just can not get my head around this approach.

I can accept that if you are ignorant of the facts you can believe. We all did at one point. But when faced with the evidence and you still choose to defend the church I wonder what scrambled thought processes you must endure.

My reply:
I can't say I know it all. I don't think anyone does. What I have seen, in my studies, is that people can lie about others even in the 1800s. I look at the evidence and make my own decisions. Some of what people on NOM accept as true witnesses, I do not.

However, I think one thing that is different about me is that my hopes and salvation are not hung up on Joseph Smith or any other leader of the Church. No one is perfect and it's the most damning lie we are taught - that Joseph and every president after him were perfect and that the Church is perfect. A lie equal to that is that it is ALL true or it is ALL false.

When one believes the leaders not only are perfect, but have to be perfect (except in very minor things), then they have to compartmentalize some of the things, say, Brigham, taught. In fact, for years, I denied he ever taught the Adam-God theory.

I read much of the CES letter. When I looked at the examples of the funerary pictures (facsimiles?) that were being compared with the one about Abraham we have in the Pearl of Great Price, I noticed that the funerary pictures had dead people who were acting like proper dead people, but the one of Abraham was the only dead person I'd seen or heard of who was kicking and hitting. Apparently, he didn't know how to act like a proper corpse.

As far as masonry and the temple, I see it this way: Joseph was a mason. He had seen into heaven. He knew he was going to die soon. The people weren't finishing the temple and he knew they'd receive the promised curses (being scattered, for one thing). He wanted to give them some clues to hold on to in regards to what he had been trying to get through their collective heads. (That they were each to see the Lord for themselves and not rely on him so much.)

I believe that he saw, in masonry, signs and tokens that could be used as clues if the people could figure it out. I'm not so sure he intended such an air of fear and secrecy to accompany the temple ordinances, though.

Here are some examples, and I hope I'm not telling too much. First sign. Casting out the devil so he cannot answer your prayers to God. (There is an example of this in the temple film.) Second sign. Keeping the devil at bay and coming to God as a beggar. Third sign. Even after Jesus has cast Satan/Lucifer under your feet (via the atonement and you accepting it), you are still a beggar before God. Fourth. You approach the throne of God, speaking to Him three times to signify that you are in the lowest realm (telestial, terrestrial, celestial).

Translating the Book of Mormon. I don't care that he used a hat and a stone. Sometimes I wonder why he didn't translate like I was taught, but perhaps his gift was not intended to be manifest in a typical way. What I do is look at the finished product.

Now, there is a lie, by inference, going around. That lie is that Joseph translated the book perfectly and it needed no editing. Not one stitch. Well, I've been reading the 1830 version of the book and sometimes his grammar makes me cringe. And, when they "fixed" it in later versions, they changed some things that I wonder if they ought to have - like changing "Mary the mother of God" to "Mary the mother of the Son of God."

Because of stuff like that, I figure I have a right to look at the book as if it was a typical book by a typical author. Errors in the first edition. It doesn't have to be perfect. Not really.

I find the book useful. I find that I get closer to God by studying it. I have stopped studying it with a Mormon paradigm. I search to see what the book, itself, is saying.

For example, it comes down hard on the Gentiles. Moroni says, "I've seen you." Then he says, "Why have you polluted the holy church of God?"

We are taught that these references are to the Catholic church. Why would he say that to a church that was polluted a thousand years before the people he saw and knew would read the book.

The book damns us, the followers of Joseph Smith's religions. Reading that book with the idea that most of the references to gentiles mean us is a real eye-opener and fits what we have been and what we have become. It even gave a special warning about polygamy.

Part Two -

I believe that Joseph didn't have sex with all of those women he was accused of having sex with. If he did sealings at all, I think it had nothing to do with marriage and marital relations. I think there are a lot of holes in the women's testimonies. They gave one witness while Joseph was alive and another witness after he was dead and they had something to lose by not lying for the Lord for Brigham.

I believe Bennet accused Joseph to cover up his own sins.

The precedent had already been set for altering scriptures when a committee embellished the Book of Commandments when they wrote the Doctrine and Covenants - and I believe that some of D&C 132 was altered by the man who claimed to have written it for Joseph originally, because he was loyal to Brigham - and they had to prove to Joseph's sons that Joseph had had lots of sex with lots of wives - and to keep polygamy, they had to convince the gov't that it had been practiced since Joseph's time so they could keep it under the clause of freedom of religion. (Apparently, if it was an innovation by BY, the courts would have rejected it. They did anyway, but that's beside the point.)

Now, I don't expect you guys to believe me or to accept my point of view. I'm not interested in debating your evidences against mine. I'm no scholar and I'm not into debate. I only replied because the op was wondering something and I thought I would give a reply because I fit somewhat into the paradigm he was addressing.

But I don't fit into the paradigm completely, because I hold the opinion that only Joseph was a prophet, that he didn't have to be anywhere near perfect to be so, that the books he translated did not have to be perfect. I hold that the reason Joseph came was to share the revelations and books, and to tell us that we, too, could connect directly with heaven. In fact, that it was vital for us to be able to bear the Lord's presence in the flesh. Otherwise, there could be no Zion. And without Zion, the whole earth would be utterly destroyed because no one would be able to stand in the Lord's presence without sizzling.

I believe that a formally organized church was not intended by God, but was pushed by Sidney Rigdon and others. I believe that one can be baptized and accept the Book of Mormon without ever becoming a member of one of the offshoots descending from Joseph Smith.

I think Baptists can stay Baptist. Catholics can stay Catholic. And so forth. They may have to change some of their thinking to accept the new stuff, but there is no need to leave their own formal religion. I think God wants no formal religion, with hierarchies and "holy men" who boss people around and tell them what underwear to wear.

I think religion is deeply personal and no person has a right to tell you what to believe, how to approach God, or make a set of rules (no tats, wear white shirts, pay money to attend temples, follow a man or be kicked out, and so forth).

I know that most everyone here disagrees with my beliefs. I also know that we share some beliefs. I don't have a problem with you not believing me. I'm fine with you choosing your own path and accepting what makes sense to you. That's the way it should be.

*steps down from soapbox*

Quote:
I hold the opinion that only Joseph was a prophet,

This means that I don't think BY down to and including TSM are true prophets. These men may have held the title, but they were not and are not the real thing.
#

End

No Punctuation in Book of Mormon

So, I learned recently that the manuscript for the Book of Mormon was, essentially, one long run-on sentence. John Gilbert, who was E.B. Grandin's assistant, put in the punctuation. I'm glad he did, because it would have been a confused mess otherwise. However, the punctuation may not be what God had in mind or what Joseph understood. For example, Nephi quotes his father, then says, "These are the words of my father." The verses and punctuation are such that the sentence goes into a different verse than what the father said and there is a colon, as if the words that follow are "the words of my father," when they clearly are not.

So, I looked on my computer and found an 1830 Book of Mormon as a Word document. It doesn't quite match my hardcopy of the book because it has many paragraphs that are smaller, but it also has some huge paragraphs.

In any case, I took out the page numbers that interrupted the text at regular intervals (along with the name of the book, such as Nephi or Alma), and I took out the punctuation. I thought it would be fun for people to print it out and read it without the distraction of punctuation. You can print it out and fill in your own punctuation.

One was uploaded as a Word file.

The other was uploaded as a PDF.

Enjoy!

Oh that I were an angel and could have the wish of my heart.

New Order Mormon is full of people whose shelves have broken. Their eyes have been opened, and they are right about so many things.

I wish I could help them. I wish I could help them understand that not everything negative they read "proves" the Book of Mormon false, that Joseph Smith Jr was a lecher, and so forth. I wish I could open up their eyes to the incredible information in the Book of Mormon. I wish I had more knowledge - and the power of convincing people to believe and know the truth. Below is one of my recent attempts to share.

[name of poster]: Why would any loving personal god allow truth to be mixed up with lies and pollution to the extent that "his children aren't even aware and have no method of waking up" except randomly a few may wake up?  That is an unreasonable definition of a "loving god" at least for me. 

How exactly are we supposed to discover mysteries for ourselves if we can't tell truth from the lies we are swimming in?  How do we wake up?  Are we supposed to rely on god's special messengers?  If so why aren't we all special messengers so we don't have to be confused by special messengers who are murderers in their hearts?  In your assertions (in my unlearned opinion) the result is god is either a trickster who mixes truth and error for fun, an absentee watchmaker, or not at home.  But maybe I am too blinded by the error I am swimming in to see another alternative.

You have a lot of good questions.

I think we are given inklings that things are not right, but we ignore them because we think the church is right and we are wrong.

I think if we read the BofM, doing all we can to ignore everything we have been taught it says and means, that we will probably understand God better.

Some things that come to mind:

Lehi was not a "special messenger" even though we are taught at church that he was a duly appointed prophet of God, legally put into the hierarchy of his day. In fact, he was an apostate (which is probably why two of his sons kept wanting to kill him). The people at Jerusalem were righteous, according to Laman and Lemuel. "Our father hath judged them."

I see a parallel to us. The LDS people are righteous. The NOMs have judged them.

"Why have you polluted the holy church of God?" Moroni asks us who believe the book (e.g. "Mormons"). He calls us wicked, perverse, and stiffnecked, and asks, "Why have ye built up churches to yourselves to get gain?" "Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls?"

He says we walk in the pride of our hearts. Mentions very fine apparel, envying, strifes, malice, persecutions - that every one of our churches have become polluted because of the pride of our hearts.

I have been quoting from Mormon 8, and in verse 35, Moroni tells us he's speaking to us as if we were present because he has seen us. Us. Mormons. Us. All of the offshoots that hold the BofM to be a sacred book.

If we read that as it says, we see that our church is polluted, greedy, and changing God's words. We, according to the book as I read it, are about to lose the gospel because we have rejected the truth, we have rejected the fulness.

It is a scathing rebuke. So is some of what Nephi says when he notes that in our day people will say, "All is well in Zion. ... Zion prospereth." He knew full well it wouldn't be Zion, but that we would consider ourselves as such. (2 Nephi 28)

I honestly believe that the answers to your questions lie in the book that tells us (all who are offshoots of JS) we are not as good as we think we are, and answers lie in realizing that there is no middle-man between you and God. False prophets in sheep's clothing, even if they think they are not, are never going to give us true answers. They don't know the true answers - or feel threatened by the true answers.

And, in regards to the sanitized idea that God will never speak to a man outside the duly organized hierarchy: Jesus was considered apostate. Samuel the Lamanite was a total outsider. Abinadi was not part of the religious hierarchy. Abraham looks to me like he started his own church. Joseph Smith was outside that church (the last "duly authorized" one being what became the Catholic church, near as I can discover, and all other Christian religions being offshoots of that church).

Anyway, the answers are inside of us, if we can cut out the jibber-jabber. We each are connected to God, and it doesn't matter if someone disagrees with our path.

The actual right each person possesses is the right to live and believe as they think God (however they determine who or what s/he is) would have them live and believe, and no more. I should not be telling you what to think or be. Neither should a church - or any individual or entity be telling you that. The idea that there is a man who has all the answers has caused a tremendous amount of damage, both physical and spiritual/emotional.

I don't know if I have answered your questions, but that is the best I can do.

Thoughts on 3 Nephi 20:39-46

I read 3 Nephi 20:39-46 this morning. I had some thoughts on these scriptures. I may be right. I may be wrong.

39  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that my people shall know my name; yea, in that day they shall know that I am he that doth speak.

Key word is "know." These people belong to the Lord because they know Him. They have seen and conversed with Him. They have felt His wounds. They know His name.

40  And then shall they say: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings unto them, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings unto them of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!

Then, shall these people have tremendous appreciation for the prophets who have seen Jesus and who have pointed the way to Him, those who have spoken with power, viewing their lives and safety as nothing in comparison with following the Lord and doing His bidding. They do not protect any person or organization by minimizing uncomfortable or unpopular truths. They speak plainly, and many people are angered by these men.

41  And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

These people desire to literally leave Babylon. The body bears the spirit. These people's spirits have been made holy. There are enough of them to physically leave.

42  For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

These people are not leaving because they were kicked out, nor because they were threatened with death if they stayed. They are not going out in haste nor by flight. They are protected by Deity in front and behind. No nasty surprises coming toward them. No secret attacks on their rear.

43  Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

Jesus was extolled, exalted, and is very high.

44  As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

According to Denver Snuffer's testimony of the atonement, Jesus received literal wounds from the suffering of every person on earth. It is impossible for anyone to be more marred than He, because He took on everyone's marring and healed from it. (See "Come Let Us Adore Him" - I don't recall the page, but it should be easy enough to find.)

45  So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Jesus' blood sprinkled upon the ground as He sweat great drops of blood. Not sure about the rest. Perhaps it is the Spirit that talks to them and teaches them, not their own experiences with anything of this earth.

46  Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me.  Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.

The things written above shall surely come. They will happen.

But Jesus had already died and was resurrected. In fact, He was the one speaking. Yes, He was. Was He exalted, extolled, and very high at the time of this visit with the Nephites? I don't know. But I do know that time means nothing to the Gods. Timing does, but time itself doesn't. I've read scriptures that speak of the future as though it had already happened.

In any case, I had these thoughts today as I read, and wanted to share.

Thoughts on King Benjamin's Sermon

I was studying Mosiah 3:25 - Mosiah 4:1 and received what seemed to me to be tremendous insights. (Remember, there's a disclaimer somewhere on this site that my posts are my own opinions.)

I'm going to put my notes below, then try to clean it up a little so that, hopefully, it will make sense.

If's one's works are evil, that person is consigned (not sure what that means) to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations. Their view, their guilt is the punishment. This view causes them to shrink from God's presence - And they shrink into a state of misery and endless woe - whence they can no more return!

The idea that people can or will somehow advance from a lower kindgom to a higher is shot out of the water here. If they feel guilt - shrinking from God's presence - it's a “no more return” (to God) thing.

And they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

In other words, it was their own doing. They cannot blame others or circumstances no matter how bad they were. Someone growing up in hell, if taught the truth by the Spirit, is just as accountable as someone growing up in righteousness who has been taught by the Spirit.

Thisis drinking out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice cannot deny! Why can it not deny it? Because YOUknowyou are guilty! It has absolutely nothingto do with “little intelligences” that refuse to allow God to let us advance. There are no little intelligences telling God, “Uh, uh, You held usback.”

No, it is allwithin each soul. Wehave a sense of justice within us. When we are brought to ourselves again, and it is everlastingly too late, weare the ones who cannot deny that justice was done. We know, perfectly well, that we are not worthy, because we rejected mercy when it was extended to us.

We cannot deny God's justice because it is also our justice. We are part of God. We have forgotten that here. We think we can hide from God. We think we can hide our sins. But we cannot. The sins are written in our souls. If we have not repented and taken the Holy Spirit for our guide, wewill know it. And because weknow it, we will shrink from God, feeling excruciating pain at being in His presence - and forever carrying the guilt and torment. It may be allayed somewhat as we move far away from God, but being separated from God is hell. So, then, where are we?

Mercy NEVERhas claim again. Neverforever.You cannot get more plain than that.

Their torment is asa lake of fire and brimstone. There is no realfire, no realbrimstone. The comparison is a figure of speech from something long forgotten, though some scholars claim to know where it came from.

It is a figure of speech, originated by those who sawsuch a lake (or lakes). They sawhow terrible the fire, brimstone, and smoke was.

Now, I understand that the idea was supposed to have originated from a group of evil men who prepared the fires to torment and kill others, but I submit that this idea may be more ancient than that. I submit that this goes to the root of the myths about the violent and angry gods such as Venus, Mercury, Mars, and so forth, those planets that once terrorized the earth.

And what do we teach each other today? We teach about the three degrees of glory and how most people will go to a degree of glory. Any torment before reaching one of those is glossed over or ignored. Few of us will be consigned to actual hell, we say. And some few even teach that there is progression from kingdom to kingdom. Others teach that all those in outer darkness, whether with a body or without, will have a total dissolution into intelligences and have another go at becoming Gods.

Some teach that we keep coming back to this life over and over again until we either give up or get it right. They claim that this is notreincarnation. But this view is refuted in the Book of Mormon. Thislife(not some past or future lives) is the day in which to repent and produce fruit. Besides that, our tendency to act in a certain way will remain - whether we are totally dismantled and put together again or whether we come back to this life six hundred times. How we act will not change. One life is enough to show who and what we really are. And that is the purpose of this life after all: To show us what and who we really are when we are wearing blinders.

“There is no hell.” “There is no devil.” And thus he whispereth in their ears and draws them down to hell with his flaxen cords that have turned into chains of iron.

I don't think we take the opportunities offered is in this life seriously enough. We think we'll get another chance in the spirit world. We think we'll magically want what we either did not want or actively fought against here - so we blithely assume, suppose, and hope that unhearing or antagonistic loved ones (or even ourselves) will magically transform once they are dead. Some truths, apparently, are too hard for people to bear.

I had an experience that showed me this truth (that we do not change once we hit the spirit world).

I was working for a man who had - oh, I'm thinking it was Musser, but I'm not sure - anyway this person's journal (on small floppy disks), who was a leader in what eventually became the FLDS church. When I worked for the man, he was blind and could not do his own typing, so he hired me to help him. He wanted me to type the journals for him.

As I typed, I came across something I could not decipher. I didn't know what to do, so I asked the man who wrote the journals to tell me what the words said. I thought, living in the spirit world and having his eyes opened, he would have a different view of polygamy and all that. He did not. He was very eager to tell me what the words were that I could not read. In fact, he was very eager for me to understand where he was coming from. He was very enthusiastic as I typed the journal. He was pleased that it was being done, even though it would not further his purposes. He never tormented my dreams or anything. He was respectful of me, but I could sense the eagernesswith which he shared the missing words.

I promise you: We do not change simply because we have died.

Back to my notes: Benjamin has finished telling the people what the angel told him to say to them. He looks at the people and sees they have fallen to the earth. They have understood his words. They have understood that they don't get to come back over and over again (whether from scratch, as an intelligence, or as a spirit being). They have understood that theywill be the condemner of themselves. And so on.

They know full well what they are. They can and do clearlysee their own fallen state. They are carnal. They are sensual. They are devilish. They see the natural tendency to deny justice and concentrate on mercy - receiving mercy without following the laws that lead to mercy. They are less than the dust of the earth, because the dust of the earth obeys God willingly, never putting it off, never refusing, never complaining.

Dowe realize this stuff? Do I realize this? Am Iguilty of any of these things (being carnal, sensual, devilish, unwilling to always obey every single thing God tells me to do)?Of course I am. I admit it freely. But my desire is to change until I am not guilty. I amchanging. I can feel it, and I can see it.

This book (the Book of Mormon) was written for us, those who read it and those believe it. It was written for me. It is a warning to us so that we will not lift up our eyes in hell, being in torment. It is a handbook to teach us how to come to Christ, until we are redeemed from the fall and brought back into God's presence. That means wehad better scrupulously study this book. Ihad better do so.

It was written to help us escape from hell. How was that again? [This is referring to previous parts of Benjamin's sermon.]

Believe in Jesus Christ. Understand that He lived and what He did. Understand your need to repent. Understand that little children and the ignorant are covered by the atonement. Understand that it is youwho are the catalyst for the power of the atonement in your life. Understand that youare the marker and the judge and you cannotdeceive yourself at the last day, let alone deceive God.

Understand that the punishment and torment is real. Don't minimize it. Don't ignore it. Understand that God sends holy prophets (and they may not be who you expect them to be) to warn us and to teach us. But, ultimately, it is between us and God, not between us an anyman.

Understand that Jesus is the onlyway. It is in yoursoul that justice will be satisfied. Youwill judge yourself. What about all the other judges? 12 original apostles, 12 disciples, etc. I think there is more to that information than meets the casual eye. They will not condemn us. Neither will Christ. We will. We are less subservient than we think.

[Note: if you want scripture references for what I've written that is not in Benjamin's speech, search the Book of Mormon; it's in there.]

Some Scriptures to Consider

In my studies today, I realized (probably not for the first time) that in the scriptural days, when the prophets were cast out, they were basically excommunicated. Something to think about.

20 And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out (excommunicated), and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 1:20)

3 And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out (excommunicate) the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 26:3)


24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25  And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out (excommunicated).

26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.
(Book of Mormon | Helaman 13:24-26)

33 O that I had repented, and had not killed the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out (excommunicated). Yea, in that day ye shall say: O that we had remembered the Lord our God in the day that he gave us our riches, and then they would not have become slippery that we should lose them; for behold, our riches are gone from us.
(Book of Mormon | Helaman 13:33)

14 And it came to pass in the thirty and first year that they were divided into tribes, every man according to his family, kindred and friends; nevertheless they had come to an agreement that they would not go to war one with another; but they were not united as to their laws, and their manner of government, for they were established according to the minds of those who were their chiefs and their leaders. But they did establish very strict laws that one tribe should not trespass against another, insomuch that in some degree they had peace in the land; nevertheless, their hearts were turned from the Lord their God, and they did stone the prophets and did cast them out (excommunicated) from among them.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 7:14)

25 And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out (excommunicated); then would our mothers and our fair daughters, and our children have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 8:25)

11 And because they did cast them all out (excommunicated), that there were none righteous among them, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 9:11)

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out (excommunicated) from the beginning.
(Book of Mormon | Ether 8:25)

29 But the people believed not the words of the prophets, but they cast them out (excommunicated); and some of them they cast into pits and left them to perish. And it came to pass that they did all these things according to the commandment of the king, Heth.
(Book of Mormon | Ether 9:29)

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints (no TM)

Restored post

Sunday, July 31, 2011

I've spent a lot of time reading a lot of people's blogs. I have even added my own two cents' worth. Sometimes I couldn't, because their comments were closed. (At the time, I didn't think about bringing my comments over here, where I could chat to my heart's content.)

I have learned a lot from these blogs, which are LDS-based. Personally, I hate the word, "bloggernacle" and that is the only time I intend to use it. Mormon blogs is what they are. They range from slavishly defending to mocking (yet they all claim to be LDS blogs). I had no idea so many people were dissatisfied with the church.

Enter Denver Snuffer. Okay, I only said that to be dramatic. I was looking at his blog along with many others. At first, I dismissed him. He was boring. Then I finally decided to read what he had to say. I read nearly everything in his blog, eventually - then I bought some of his books. His is the voice of reason among so many other voices, centered in worshiping Jesus Christ instead of the leaders, but urging to stay with the church and let Jesus do his own housecleaning if housecleaning there must be.

I have to say that I am a different person for having been exposed to all of these blogs. I'm beginning to tire of them, now. I have no interest, for example, in banding together to remove the church handbook "no one" is allowed to read. I have no interest in polygamy, nor "line marriages". I have no interest in starting my own church, nor in attending churches that are more "fun" or that pay more attention to me.

The fact is, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints IS the Church of Jesus Christ. It belongs to Him. Even if it has become a corporation whose only legal member is the president of the church. Why would we want to be a member of a legal corporation anyway? I want to be a member of the church of the Firstborn. The only way to that is through the ordinances of the Church of JC of LDS.

No matter how imperfect the people, no matter how imperfect the organization, this is Jesus' church. He will do His own housecleaning, and I assure you that He will do it, if He isn't already doing it. We are not to steady the ark. But, as Denver Snuffer points out, God does things in ways we don't anticipate. He raises up people from places we don't expect. He fulfills His prophecies in ways we would not have guessed, no matter how learned we may think we are. We can't second-guess God.

Things are scary today. Maybe we aren't as prepared as we should be. Myself, I am as prepared as I am able to be - which seems woefully inadequate at the moment. Even if we think we are prepared, even . . . you know this reminds me of my preparedness friends, who have much storage (or hope to have it) and intend to protect that storage with guns, should someone come along who wants to steal it. They expect marauding gangs, etc. to come along. They have reason to believe that.

But what if what happens is something that never occurred to them? What if no one comes to steal or to kill? What if something totally unexpected happens?

So much of the time, so many people seem to think they know so much. (I'm returning to my other topic now.) We don't know the hearts of the leaders of the church. We don't know anything, even about ourselves and why we do and say things; we are certainly in no position to judge others. Yes, things have changed. Yes, some of those changes seem to be steering the church away from the intended course of a gloriously happy rendezvous with Jesus. But those changes are prophesied all over the Book of Mormon. We can see it if we read "LDS members aka ME!" in every place the book says "gentile(s)". Nearly all of those (if not all) apply to present day LDS people, me included.

There was a reason Pres. Benson urged us to read the Book of Mormon. There was a reason he said we were still under condemnation. If you're unsure of how to read the book and apply it to us (you and me), read some of Denver Snuffer's posts on the books of first, second, and third Nephi.

1 Nephi

2 Nephi

3 Nephi

Gentiles in general