Numbers

It seems to me that God likes 40, 7, and 3 ½. It also seems like God likes to use his messengers as signs to the people (see the Old Testament). He also likes to use heavenly bodies as signs (see Genesis).

I'll jump right into my thoughts. Denver Snuffer was baptized on Sept 10, 1973 (Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil, page 88). 40 years later, to the day, he was excommunicated (see Lecture 1 in Boise, Idaho, of the 10-lecture circuit that stretched from Sept 2013 to Sept 2014).

His ministry began March 1, 1984 (Second Comforter, pages 104, 200-01). Interesting, I think: 1984. The name of a book about total loss of real freedom to act and be. A story about a man who tried to buck the system. I believe his ministry will either end or change 40 years later. On the exact day of March 1st, 2024? I don't have an opinion on that, though I do think it will be in the spring of that year.

And the moon shall turn to blood

When the moon is eclipsed, it looks blood red. No biggie, except there have been several blood moons on or near Jewish holy days, and even an LDS holy day (Saturday General Conference, April 4, 2015). You can read more about the eclipses and the holy days here and here. And here is a list of all the posts on Bare Record that talk about moon and blood, if you care to peruse it.

From the first link:

. . . the fact that these four blood moons will occur on significant Jewish holy days is not only rare, but significant. The first blood moon will be on Passover on April 15, 2014. There will be another blood moon on the following year on Passover which will be April 4, 2015. The other Jewish Holy Day is the Feast of Tabernacles which is  Oct. 8, 2014. On this day as well, there will be a Blood Moon Eclipse.. and then the following Feast of Tabernacle on Sept. 28, 2015 will be the 4th Blood Moon.

 The sun shall be turned to darkness

There's something interesting about the full eclipse of the sun (August 21, 2017) that goes from the west coast to the east coast of the continental United States. First, it falls on the birthday of "the venerable leader" of the LDS Church. Second, it is the first stroke of an X. The second stroke will come on April 8, 2024 and will begin in Mexico and end in a tiny bit of Canada, crossing the United States in the process.

As you can see below, it marks a giant X over the continental United States (as an aside, God's handwriting is very artistic. The X is not a straight, austere duet of lines but poetic curves). It's as if God will be saying, "I've had enough of your wickedness, rebellion, and nonsense, dearest Gentiles. I'm done. You are no longer a nation. The Gentiles have proven themselves fruit worthy only to be cast out and burned." I suspect it's all quickly downhill from there for us.

Sidenote: It was made known in a conference in St. George, Utah in March 2017 that God was offering another covenant. People will have the opportunity to accept or reject that covenant on Sept 3, 2017. The words of that covenant were given by the Lord in, if I remember correctly, July 2017, and 7 years from that conference is March 2024. Also, 7 years from verbally accepting or rejecting that covenant is Sept 2024.

Spring 2024.  
Denver's 40-year mission is complete. March 1. 
 The X is complete. April 8. 
The covenant is either accepted or rejected by our behavior; the time possibly past, and the country erupts into violence, the like of which has never been seen before. March to Sept.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Maybe, just maybe, this post is not the vain musings of a religious lunatic. I wonder if we should, perhaps, "fear and tremble" and look into our own hearts for pride and rebellion against God, look into our own hearts to see if they are filled with love or with anger/accusation against our fellow beings. Truly, the earth is quickly filling with more violence than it has experienced for a long time. Not too many years from now, I expect, until the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed (see Mormon 8:8) and violence from one end to the other.

Questions about the "newly revealed account of John the Beloved’s Testimony of Jesus the Messiah"

I finished reading the document last night, and am rereading it again today, highlighting things in it to help me focus and ponder


I have questions I would like to take to the Lord in regards to some of the things in that document. For example: Peter says he's going to ascend to the deep. Can't be the ocean because that's a descent (even though the current Bible translations have it that he decides to go fishing; I expect the people putting the NT together had no idea what this story was talking about so they edited it to "make more sense").

Ascend - go up
Deep - deep space? Someplace deep anyhow

Ark? What ark? Where? A spaceship? A portal to the heavens? If we saw it, would we immediately think "ark" or would we think "elevator" or something else?

Jesus stood at the sacred entry, and it was at the horizon of the morning star that he did this. Were they on the horizon on earth? Were they actually in space? How did they do this ascent on their own? Did Jesus teach them some woo-woo things so that they knew how to leave this dimension and go into another?

They didn't recognize Jesus at first because his glory was so bright. That's probably the only thing in this part that I can almost-fully understand.

Ritual meal I'm guessing is the sacrament. The Lord asks, "Have you had the sacrament?" (so, they could have hung out there for a while with no celestial beings coming around, since they could have had time to have the ritual meal before the Lord got there?) Then he tells them to approach the veil to the east and they'll find what they're looking for. So, what was it they were looking for?

Are they in a temple? They can't be in the apostate Jewish temple because they've probably been excommunicated and, after killing God's son, I expect heaven wouldn't have a "portal" there anymore. The veil is on the east. Is there another one on the west or south or north or all three?

They approached the veil and were overcome by the multitude of what was received. I expect that is referring to knowledge and understanding, probably things that cannot be written because there's no way they'd know how to put it into words.

Then, John tells Peter that it's the Lord who's talking to them. Peter puts on clothes because he "did not wear the apparel." What apparel? The clothing we see in our temples today? If literal, why did he need to put on clothing? Were all of the others wearing clothing? Ceremonial clothing is what I am supposing. But he needed to wear it, apparently, before he could approach the Lord? Where did he get the clothing? Did he bring it with him? Was it just laying around near the door of the ark? Were they already wearing "the apparel," but he took his off?

Peter cast himself into the great deep (remember, this is up, not down), but the others entered the ark and parted the veil because they were not bound by the limits of this world. So, before then, they had not actually entered the ark? Nor parted the veil? And Peter, being impetuous, didn't just part the veil, but jumped in wholeheartedly (somehow, I picture a friend, Daryl, when I see Peter doing this).

Not being bound by the limits of this world they can defy gravity? Or is it entering a different dimension? Or both?
"... they saw a fire burning at the offering place and the Flesh Offering was upon it, who is also the Bread of Life." What does this quote mean? Jesus was upon the fire? He was upon the offering place? He was the fire?

Eat the food of the rising sun, Jesus says, then gives them his flesh and blood. Is it literally flesh? Literally blood? Bread and wine? Something else? Why is it called the food of the rising sun instead of the food of the Rising Son?

This document is so dang deep I can't see why people are so busy arguing about it (especially against it). It seems to me that the most effective use of this thing is to study it, ponder it, and ask God what it's talking about.

I am reminded of Lemuel and Laman who were discussing their father's dream. Nephi brought up the idea that they could understand it if they asked God about it. They rejected that idea, apparently thinking that God would not tell ordinary people like them anything.

Maybe we shouldn't be arguing about this new revelation. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for ways to prove it did not come from God. Maybe, instead, we should be pondering it, trying to figure it out, and be taking it to God. That's my intention, because I'm more interested in understanding it than in arguing about it.

The Fulness of the Record of John?

6  And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John's record is hereafter to be revealed.
18  And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
Doctrine and Covenants 93

I've not read the pdf (the quote below is a link to it), but I intend to. It might prove enlightening.

... a newly revealed account of John the Beloved’s Testimony of Jesus the Messiah 

Edited to add: I've been reading this pdf. It is the testimony of John the Beloved, not John the Baptist. Still, there is incredible enlightenment. I had no idea that the Father was so closely involved with us. I was pretty sure that Jesus was and is, but the Father seemed so remote to me. My mind is enlightened, my soul is lifted up to the heavens. I feel within my heart to proclaim my gratitude to God for this revelation, and feel even more desire to serve Him and only Him.

It also is sobering to me to realize that it would have been much harder to listen to a man who says the things Jesus said about himself and about his standing with the Father, than it is to accept a simple messenger from the Lord, a messenger who continually admits he is not worthy of our adoration, but is like us, and is only here, pointing us to the Savior, because the Lord called him to do the task.

The Lord's Coming in Glory

This is an excerpt from Denver's talk that was shared with me, and I think it is important enough to share here. I haven't listened to his talk yet. I am in the process of listening to Dan Rogers' talk, though, and would highly recommend it. It is about Christ. I have not listened to any other talks, but they are all supposed to be shared at some point by those who hosted the Boise Conference. Many thanks to them and their selfless efforts.

 I saw His return in glory and recorded what He revealed. I was lying at home in my bed when The Lord spoke to me, calling me by name. When it ended I was commanded to write an account. As I wrote, the words were given to me and I recorded the following.

 "On 13th of February, 2003, I saw the Lord coming in His glory. At first a sign appeared in the heavens, a light emanating from a single point and turning first this way and that. All the world saw it and men debated over it's meaning. At length the light turned upon us and within it was the Lord showing His glory with concourses of angels and the hosts of heaven following in his wake. And when we saw that it was the Lord we rejoiced and were filled with joy. I turned to my wife and said, "Look, it is Christ"! And she said, "yes, it is!" And we were filled with joy and peace of mind for the long awaited day of the Lord had come. But others were filled with dread. They feared and lamented and wanted the mountains to cover them and hide them from His presence for He was clothed in red and came in judgement. And Christian ministers knew they had taught falsely and that their faith could not save and they begged for relief from the saints. This caused me to marvel at how this could be. It was given unto me to understand that without the ordinances of salvation through the authorized ministers of the Gospel, it was not possible for men to shed their sins. And they could not look upon a just and holy being without being racked with torment and guilt for their sins. And they pled with the saints to minister to them but we could not for we were constrained by the Spirit and were forbidden to do so. For this was the day of judgement which the Lord had in His heart and He was now come to preach His own sermon, clothed in red and to deliver those who waited on Him and to convict and condemn those who had not. I write this with my own hand and bear solemn testimony that it is true. Amen"
When I finished recording the foregoing account, I replied to the Lord that it was not complete and that I could give a much fuller account. The Lord replied, "when the time comes to bear testimony of this, these are the words you shall use".

 And many other things were told me that cannot be written. These are the words I can use to testify of that event. Therefore this is my testimony of that visit in early in 2003.

 The first appearance of the Lord was in the 50th year of my life, an age considered suitable for more than 1000 years for a man to qualify for service in the holy order after the order of the son of God. The Lord has visited with and taught me on many occasions since then but never at my insistence. I have never controlled His appearing. My experience is that he cannot be conjured nor controlled. I can petition but he comes when he decides. The Lord has never appeared to me in a dream. I have always been awake, fully aware of my surroundings and with my senses unimpeded. When awakened during the night, sleep has always fled and following such an encounter I was always unable to return to sleep. The Lord does everything according to His higher way of teaching. By beginning with a vision of His return, He set out the foundation for understanding His course which is one eternal round. Since his first appearance, He has sent diverse angels from Adam, or Michael to Hyrum or Joseph Smith, giving line upon line to confirm my hope in Christ.

May God grant us all soft hearts and true repentance. I worry about myself, my children, my siblings, my other family members, and many friends and acquaintances, as well as all of us on planet earth. Oh, that I had the voice of an angel and that the whole world would hear and turn to Christ!

Times they are a changin'

It seems like things have gone into a higher gear since September 2014.

I have always thought this restoration movement, this movement to preserve the restoration was so that people would have a place to come to when all hell broke loose in the LDS Church. Look at the prophecy below.

The restoration is about to be completely compromised by the institutional LDS organization. If we do not establish another way to avoid the coming catastrophe, the restoration will utterly fail. The movement begun now will seem very prescient in a few years. In coming days many people will want a place to land as the LDS Church undergoes changes to retain their standing, favorable tax status, popularity and wealth. People need a place to fellowship where they can function and learn how to preserve the restoration in a place that will be a refuge for those fleeing an increasingly corrupt organization.

What has begun may seem small, unnecessary and even rebellious at present. It will not be long before it is viewed very differently.

(Days, not literal, I am sure. But months? Maybe. Years? Without doubt.)

We have our work cut out for us. Are we sufficiently humble? Are we void of accusations and contentions? Do we return persecution and pain with kindness and meekness? Are we opening the doors of heaven with our faith?

Will we be found worthy to entertain angels and to be opening, welcoming arms for those whose faith in all things LDS has been shattered?

I don't know about others, but for me, I feel I have so much to work on. There is so much I lack. I pray continually that I may stand, that I may be a shelter from the storm when people's faith in the restoration and even in Jesus Christ are compromised in the coming years.

Denver Snuffer's Books

I asked Denver about making pdf copies of his books (specifically, his book coming up, based on the lectures). I was concerned that there may be people in other countries who could not buy from Amazon (for whatever reason).

I want to share his reply so that no one reading this post will inadvertently do something illegal. I'm sure he would not mind if this information in his email was passed around. If we know someone who cannot afford to buy the book, there are those of us who can buy it for them.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Denver & Stephanie Snuffer
Date: Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [from the desk of Denver Snuffer] New comment on New Website Completed.
To: LJn <antauljn@gmail.com>


The short answer is no. The long answer is that the books are protected by copyright and there are contracts in place which require them to not be copied other than through the normal purchase for sale. They are all available through Amazon, which is worldwide. Anyone can order them from anywhere in the world.

The lectures are available free. The transcripts are available free. The book will not be available except for purchase.

The contracts include distribution rights which are controlled and some significant part of the price of the book goes to a family headed by a disabled man who suffered a stroke and needs the income to provide for himself and his family. I am pleased to have him supported in part by the proceeds from book sales. When copyright laws are violated and unauthorized copies of any of the books are made without paying for the copy, this deprives a family in need of the money which would come to them if the law were respected.

It takes a great deal of work to make a book available to the public. I have given away the information in the ten lectures and transcripts which anyone can have. But the labor, expertise and arrangements which put a book into print is something which should not be taken without payment because it is something altogether different involving a number of people and their livelihoods.

No one can put a book into print without professional assistance. Those involved are only able to make books possible because they are in the business of publishing. If they are not purchased, and the information is taken without paying those involved, then I will not be able to continue to write.

E-books are not going to survive any international conflict between governments. All governments have the ability to unleash viral attacks which will make the Internet dysfunctional as soon as a conflict begins. The only thing which will survive will be printed copies of the books. The more copies that are sold, the more likely it is that they will survive into the aftermath of the next significant war. So even if it requires some sacrifice to get copies out, the more there are printed the more likely it will be for the information to survive into the future.

-Denver Snuffer

Denver Snuffer on Joseph and Plural Marriage

So, Denver made available a day or two ago a lecture on plural marriage. You can find the mp3 zipped here - and unzipped here.

That's all I'm going to write about that.

I do wish to mention something else, though.

As I was listening to the lecture, I was convicted (as born again Christians are wont to say). It had nothing to do with plural marriage or polygamy. My eyes were opened just a tad more in regards to my awful situation - our awful situation. The words of Joseph Smith kept echoing in my brain: "The Lord is not trifling with you or me."

This is serious stuff. Few will make it. Why? I don't know. Not willing to totally bow the knee to God? Not recognizing when it is the Lord who is speaking because the messenger is unexpected? Not willing to totally let go of all our pride and falsehoods?

It can't possibly be because we are inherent sinners, incapable of saving ourselves. If that were the case, none of us could make it. None of us could be saved.

I look at myself and I see that I am so defective. I see that I can do nothing of myself. I lack so much knowledge. I desire my favorite sins. It is all I can do to cry to the Lord to remove my desires for lasciviousness, fear, anger, and judgmental attitudes.

"Oh, Lord, remove my sins!"

The Lord tells us that as we forgive, we will be forgiven. He tells us that if we love with His pure love, we will reap that love in return (what you cast upon the waters shall return to you).

I know something is changing in my heart because I see myself not caring when someone does something that used to throw me into a rage or, at the very least, a griping fit. I know something is changing when I become less and less worried that someone might find out that I consider Denver a true messenger, that I have been baptized by one having authority, and that I partake of the Lord's supper as often as I can in the manner described in scripture.

I even got brave enough to be exceedingly plain to my true believing sister. Her reply was awesome: 

Thanks.  I know you have told me some of this but the detail has helped me understand your journey.

I do appreciate your information.

I should not have been surprised, though. Our mother was very accepting of us and allowed us to make our own choices.

But, as usual, I go sideways of what I was originally intending to say.  Perhaps, because I cannot find the words to say it.

This is serious. This is real. We have had so many pretenders. There have been so many men (perhaps women, also, but I don't know of any) who have come up over the years saying, "The Church is off-track. I, I, have the truth! Follow me."

There is so much knowledge we don't have. So much we think we know. So much we fear. So much we condemn or fight against or ignore because it doesn't fit our paradigms.

I look at the great chasms all around me, all of the many pits to fall into (and this last lecture opened my eyes to the fact that there are a great many more than I had previously thought), and all I can do is fall on my knees and cry unto God:

Oh, God, don't let me fall! Don't let darkness claim me! I have given up many things, I am willing to give up all things. I will and am giving up all I have and all I believe. Please! Rescue me. Change my heart so that I, like the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon, come to you and never return to my filth, to my sins, to my fears.

I cannot comprehend that I would be brave, that I would gladly suffer torment and persecution for my Lord's sake. Yet that is my goal, my desire. Not to suffer, but to be united with the Gods. To be and do what I came here to become and do. To be and do what my life was spared to become and do.

May God bless us all. May all who have the tiniest willingness to escape from Satan be rescued by the hand of the Almighty God is my prayer. Amen.

Inside the mind of a "Snufferite"

These may be difficult to understand because they are taken out of context. I apologize for that. They are pieces of postings by a certain Random poster.

And the fact that there are many offended by him, ... is a witness that he is a true prophet. True prophets do not make one "feel good" - neither do they offer praise to those God has told them do not deserve it, no matter how much it may offend. In fact, many prophets have been killed because they said things that the religious found offensive.

So many times, when the discussions turn to DS [Denver Snuffer] and whether he is a prophet, etc., I wonder why we are discussing it. It is rather like getting a letter from a far-off relative (God) and dissecting the envelope, the paper, the ink, and the handwriting (the messenger) then dismissing the message because the envelope was pink, the paper was plain, the ink was green, or the handwriting looked rushed. #

I think the point is to go to the Lord ourselves and find the truth. I think we were never meant to lean on DS, but to hear and recognize when he is speaking the Lord's words and go from there. DS is insisting that we learn to walk, then run, then fly whereas the church seems to insist that we are best off kept in a playpen 24/7 so that we don't get hurt (led astray). #

I think Denver is good at bringing a lot of things to light. I think he is inspired. I think the Lord tells him a lot of what he says. At the same time, it all boils down to "What is the Lord telling me?" The path, though similar to all others in some respects, is still a lone path and has many aspects that are unique to each individual. #

Yes, and this is why Denver is not part of my decision [to leave the church or to stay in it] - except as a concern that the leaders were so blind to have cast out a true messenger. Whatever I choose to do, I will do because God told me. I am seeing that my decisions are mine to make, with God's input. #

DS is A prophet, not THE prophet. "The prophet" is currently a title held by the current president of the LDS church. When he dies, another man will hold that title. DS is not a leader of any organization, church, or movement. He is simply a man who was sent by God to deliver messages, which is what scriptural prophets have done since the beginning of time. As all true prophets do, DS points past himself and to Christ.

So, the answer to your question is no. No one on here believes that DS is "the" prophet.

However, many do believe he is "a" prophet (including myself - but only because I recognized the words of the Master in much of what he has written and said, and because God has told me so). #

Not a rebuttal, but this comment brought about this response in my soul: "I don't care what Denver says. I don't care what he thinks about me. Denver is nothing to me. Yes, I find his words valuable if they are the words of the Lord, but I don't intend to show Denver anything. If the Lord should intend for me to shout praises to Him and DS happens to be in the room, fine by me. If it is in the privacy of my own room, fine by me. Same with declarations of accepting a covenant offered by God."

Let DS sit down like he wants to and another man stand up and speak the words of the Lord and if the Spirit moves us to speak up and say that we view ourselves as less than the dust of the earth and we want to know what we can do, then I say we should speak up - without caring what the speaker thinks and without fearing what [someone] will chastise us about it. #

The following post was in connection with the one above:

My post was just my reaction in light of [ ]'s fervent protection of DS - or contempt for us (I'm never sure which). In fact, none of the posts I made on this thread today were directed toward the people I quoted. 

And [ ], you don't really need to feel contempt for me. I do a good job of that on my own. It still doesn't change the fact that, whether he agrees or not/whether he likes it or not, DS is a prophet of God. That puts him in the same category as other scriptural prophets. Will he fall? I have no idea. That is his choice, his business. But he is what he is - and people will react to that, both pro and con, in ways they have reacted since the times of Adam and Enoch.

We are supposed to be offended at the man. He does try. "Proud descendants of Nauvoo." Words to the effect of "you're all damned," "nobody will listen," "only a very few will come to Zion and it won't be Gentiles," and so forth. He seems to do his best to make people uncomfortable, perhaps even angry.

As for myself, I already know that I don't measure up, that I am in sore need of repentance, that I am less than the dust of the earth. I also know that my Savior loves me. He loves me enough to visit me in dreams, and to bring me to angels in dreams to discuss my future with me and allow me the choice to live or die (we call it dying; they didn't). My Lord and my Father love me enough to show me in a dream that I don't measure up so much that when He called me His daughter, I did not believe Him. I "knew" that I was not His. I let Him know he had the wrong girl (in the dream I was a teenager). He told me that even if He had the wrong girl I was still His daughter, and if the other one (He knew she was me) showed up, she would also be His daughter. And what He was doing for me He would continue doing until I was healed and whole, and fit to live with Him. #

It IS discouraging, imo, to believe that so many will not make it. I counteract that by focusing on Christ and not on His servant. The servant does not know everything. He does not know me. He does not know if I will make it or not. He shares what he is told to (with, perhaps, the exception of things like "D cup"  @-) ). What God tells me may not be the same as what He has told someone else, even a true messenger. (I am not talking about commandments and such; I am talking about personal information, personal commandments - which the messenger did address in one of the lectures when he pointed out that we had different lives and what we had to do would be different than him - or something like that.)

I had a dream when my oldest two were little. I was in a house or apartment with a huge glass window. There was a storm raging outside. Every time I focused on the storm, it would break in, crashing through the windows and unleashing its fury in my home. Every time I changed my focus to my little family, to my own life, the storm would back out, the windows would heal and seal, and we would be safe again.

To me, that dream was telling me to focus on my own things, my own life and let the outer world howl and rage. I think it can apply to times I feel discouraged or depressed. I think it can apply to focusing on how many will not make it. All I can do is the best I can do and that will have to suffice, even though my best is not very good. (Christ needs to take up a lot of slack in my life.) #

e-eye: Denver is not the Lord's prophet set to guide his church.[/quote]

Denver would be the first to agree with you 100%. And I also agree with you 100%. #

[quote]I have always considered DS a peer.  He's not above me and I'm not above him - we have parity.[/quote]

Exactly my present point of view, but it was different when I first began to extricate myself from following the brethren. It was only natural to turn that onto DS, but I worked on changing that paradigm because I believed it was a damning one. I think those who listen to that man are on various parts of the path. Now, I see that he is simply a peer who has had more experiences than I have, who has more understanding at the present, and has been told by our common Parent to teach his siblings so that they might also "grow up" so to speak.

...

Meanwhile, whenever I go to the lectures, I usually end up learning some awesome things from my friends. Every person I have ridden with to the lectures has had some great insights that I had not thought of before. Like { }, DS isn't the only reason I go. I go because God provides the way and who am I to argue with Him? I go because I love to mingle and fellowship with like-minded souls. I go because it feeds me in more ways than one. I go because it strengthens bonds between myself and whoever I converse with.  #

Critiquing the words of a true servant of God

The Lord Jesus Christ has asked one of His servants to preach via the written word and by mouth. As a result, the man has written several books. His most controversial work, Passing the Heavenly Gift, got him cast out of the church that professes to not only honor and worship the Man who gave him the words to speak, but this church professes to be His own true and living church. I do agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is still working with this church; what I cannot fathom is how those who profess to "know" Christ cannot recognize His words. How can one not hear the voice of the Master in so many of the words spoken and written by the servant?

Yes, PTHG is a painful, even horrid, book to read at times - but the conclusion reached at the end of the book is that the LDS church is still Jesus' church. He is still working with it. And the fact that it has been fulfilling scripture does not make the author who points that out apostate, nor a devil, nor a demon - nor misguided.

Recently, someone said this:

I have noticed numerous instances of problems related to logic, consistency of argument, rhetorical manipulations and other devices that I found troubling. When read with charity and a sincere desire for light and truth, these earlier works can be thrillingly inspiring, albeit flawed. No book is perfect, and we have the Holy Ghost to aid us in discerning light and truth.

The above problems I have noticed in DS's earlier works seem to have multiplied considerably in PTHG.

This person is a person who I believe is attempting to bring us poor "apostates" back to the fold. To some degree the person seems to be sincere, yet they do not "feel" right. My gift of discernment tells me this person is one to be wary of. My reply is below:

I can see this point of view if one does not recognize Denver as a biblical-type prophet of God. Much of what he says is colored by the fact that he has seen "the vision of all," that he has seen and spoken with both the Father and the Son, and that he has conversed with Joseph Smith jr.

We, lacking those experiences, view all that Denver has written from a carnal, Babylonic mindset. We believe we see flaws. We believe ourselves not only justified, but saintly when we point out what we believe to be errors based upon our mere pittance of experience and understanding. Surely Christ is tempted to laugh heartily at our vain and self-serving justifications of what He attempts to teach us through the servants He has called by His own voice. Surely we are puffed up and wise in our own sight. Surely we are so stiff-necked and high minded that we think we know more than God, thus considering ourselves virtuous when we reject truth in whole or in part.

My point in bringing this up is not to diss the person who wrote his/her feelings. My point is this: We humans think we know so much. If we view ourselves as learned, then we think we are wise. I see this all over. The person above is simply the most recent example I have come across.

We think ourselves wiser than God. We think we can parse His words, critique the manner in which His servants speak, find fault and flaws because what is said does not match our reasoning nor our understanding. Rather than being humble, rather than recognizing the voice of the Master, we would prefer to debate, criticize, and do anything that does not entail the possibility that we are in need of repentance, that we are - indeed - less than the dust of the earth, unworthy of salvation, unworthy of the time and effort that Christ puts into us again and again in the hopes that we will at last turn and face Him.

As for me, I am a sinner. I am less than the dust of the earth. I am unworthy of the incredible love and patience my Lord extends to me. I am overawed by the fact that He has deigned to speak through a servant who fears no man, no institution, no government. I am humbled by the fact that I had never supposed before: that the Lord often speaks through those who are not part of the accepted hierarchy. Yet, there it is in scriptures. Even Jesus had no ecclesiastical authority. He and the general authorities of His time would often butt heads.

We are just like the ancient Jews - whether in Jesus' time or in Jeremiah's or Isaiah's time. "If our days had been in those days," we opine, "we/I would have listened to the prophets. We/I would not have cast them out, nor persecuted them, nor killed them."

And what does Jesus have to say to our opining? This:

23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30  And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31  Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32  Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34  ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 23

 This scathing rebuke belongs to us, folks. It belongs to our self-satisfied generation, we who think it is impossible for us to go astray as long as we stay with the humans who lead a corporation even if they contradict the words of Christ as given through his prophet (Joseph Smith) who we are taught didn't really understand things like we do today - and that "new prophets supersede old prophets" and can even contradict the scriptures with impunity.

If we are the holy church of God we are, according to the scriptures, under condemnation. If we are not under condemnation we are not the holy church of God. This is according to Moroni who saw US.

35  Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.  But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36  And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37  For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38  O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?  Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?  Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39  Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40  Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41  Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Let us awake to our awful situation. The times of the gentiles is nearly fulfilled. We are about to lose what we think we have, and it will be given to the righteous descendants of Lehi, as promised by Jesus when He came and preached to them after His resurrection. Let us humble ourselves even to the dust of the earth. Let us view ourselves in our polluted state, with our tables covered with vomit (regurgitated, predigested food instead of the meat of the gospel).

Let us repent of our unbelief and turn to Christ, searching in humility and patience with our whole souls to see his His face in this life, for if we cannot stand in His presence now, what makes us think we can stand in His presence when He returns again with the hosts (Fathers) of heaven?

Thoughts on 3 Nephi 20:39-46

I read 3 Nephi 20:39-46 this morning. I had some thoughts on these scriptures. I may be right. I may be wrong.

39  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that my people shall know my name; yea, in that day they shall know that I am he that doth speak.

Key word is "know." These people belong to the Lord because they know Him. They have seen and conversed with Him. They have felt His wounds. They know His name.

40  And then shall they say: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings unto them, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings unto them of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!

Then, shall these people have tremendous appreciation for the prophets who have seen Jesus and who have pointed the way to Him, those who have spoken with power, viewing their lives and safety as nothing in comparison with following the Lord and doing His bidding. They do not protect any person or organization by minimizing uncomfortable or unpopular truths. They speak plainly, and many people are angered by these men.

41  And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

These people desire to literally leave Babylon. The body bears the spirit. These people's spirits have been made holy. There are enough of them to physically leave.

42  For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

These people are not leaving because they were kicked out, nor because they were threatened with death if they stayed. They are not going out in haste nor by flight. They are protected by Deity in front and behind. No nasty surprises coming toward them. No secret attacks on their rear.

43  Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

Jesus was extolled, exalted, and is very high.

44  As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

According to Denver Snuffer's testimony of the atonement, Jesus received literal wounds from the suffering of every person on earth. It is impossible for anyone to be more marred than He, because He took on everyone's marring and healed from it. (See "Come Let Us Adore Him" - I don't recall the page, but it should be easy enough to find.)

45  So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Jesus' blood sprinkled upon the ground as He sweat great drops of blood. Not sure about the rest. Perhaps it is the Spirit that talks to them and teaches them, not their own experiences with anything of this earth.

46  Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me.  Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.

The things written above shall surely come. They will happen.

But Jesus had already died and was resurrected. In fact, He was the one speaking. Yes, He was. Was He exalted, extolled, and very high at the time of this visit with the Nephites? I don't know. But I do know that time means nothing to the Gods. Timing does, but time itself doesn't. I've read scriptures that speak of the future as though it had already happened.

In any case, I had these thoughts today as I read, and wanted to share.

God Has Not Deserted Us

I came across this comment on Google+ and got permission to post it as a guest blog.

Maybe it's not a test that you are failing, maybe you are being humbled. What is more humbling than losing all your teeth and feeling like you will never be "good enough" to see God?

I'm not calling you prideful, I'm just saying, well, this -- "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me--the fountain of all righteousness." --Ether 12-27-28

Moroni wrote this right in the middle of that big sermon on faith. Faith always starts with weakness.

I think painful experiences are more likely to be humbling to build faith than tests to prove something. There is only one test and it is not about seeing if you can be a perfect person every day of your life. It is about trusting that whatever happens will turn to your good.

It is about taking blows to your self esteem because all of your teeth are falling out and you don't know if you'll ever find someone decent to marry.

It is about wondering how you can stay with a church that has gone so far astray that you wonder if there is anything to gain by staying with it.

It is about worrying every day that you are going to miss the boat and end up living in a cardboard box on the side of the road.

It is about taking your personalized doubts and fears and weaknesses and letting God lead you. Sometimes it feels like you are diving headfirst off a cliff, naked and blindfolded, but you have to trust that you will find somewhere to land, that it is not what it seems.

"Those who fear God are remembered, visited and blessed by Him. Those who had reason to be 'proud' of their status in mortality, the great ones of the day, dignitaries, presiding authorities, kings, rulers and magistrates 'he hath scattered' like dust. They will be put down from their mighty seats. In their place those of low degree will be exalted. Those who crave knowledge and are hungry to be filled with truth will not reject His messengers, and will be filled. This is so even if the greatest message of the day comes through an elderly woman, pregnant for the first time, and her lowly, still unmarried, pregnant cousin. Oh how wonderful are the workings of God! How little the praise and recognition of man matters! How foolish to men are the ways in which the Lord works in every generation! How easy it is to mistake social standing for God's favor, and to consider lowliness to mean insignificance! This God, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, surely has given us all sufficient warning to let us all know His ways are not, and never will be, man's ways." --Denver Snuffer, "Come Let Us Adore Him," pages 30-31

End of comment.

To my friend's comment, I would add this (that I read this morning in the same book before I read her comment):

From the widow's perspective, the judge from whom she needs relief is unjust. . . .  However, because of her persistence, the judge is finally persuaded to grant her request.

This story illustrates the difference between man's perception of God who appears indifferent, and God's greater wisdom in timing His answers to our prayers.

We judge God. We think He delays, ignores or refuses us. This parable is teaching us to pray continually anyway. No matter what our perspective is, we should persist. Petition God until at last He delivers you. Never relent. Never stop asking. Even if you believe God to be unjust, . . .  continue to petition Him. He does listen and He does answer. [pp 169-170]

All of God's disciples experience this struggle in submitting their will to God's. All of us experience the exasperation that comes from petitioning the "unjust judge" whose patience and timing are beyond us. All are tempted to complain that God is unnecessarily delaying an answer to our needs [emphasis mine]. All of us will finally come to realize that God has always intended to avenge His people who cry to Him day and night, even though He may bear with us a long time first.

Will men lose faith? Will they lose patience as they await the Lord's answer to their desperate pleas? He is showing us the struggle we will have in the last days before His return. Despite all He may have done to answers [sic] prayers before, it will seem He has abandoned those who are here waiting. Even though He has provided proof of His word to His disciples, His delay will not only try their faith, it will cause them to wonder if God is not this unjust judge who makes them wait. It will test them so completely the Lord asks whether at the Second Coming He will find faith left on the earth. It is a sobering question. It is a warning. Do not lose faith. He does listen. [Emphasis Denver Snuffer's]  . . .

The parable is designed to forewarn us. Being forewarned should prepare us. Above all, the parable should instruct us to never lose faith. . . . He will vindicate every word He has spoken. [pp 172-173]

A Couple of Blogs Worth Perusing

A friend sent me a link to a blog and I found one of the posts worth repeating. Instead of repeating it here (since I don't have permission to quote the entire post), I'll send you over there. A Little Peace In Paradise  is the name of the blog - The Doctrine of the Anti-Christ is the post.

The other blog is All Things Bear Record of Me, also known as "Bare Record".

So are we willing to be good fruit?

 I have been reading Denver Snuffer's posts on Jacob 5 (Denversnuffer.blogspot.com). He has given me some enlightenment on the subject. (He's good for noticing some details that I do not; that makes it very useful for him to be around.)

I was particularly struck with a couple of things he said in his post today. I knew there was a scripture that fit, and I found it. For your information, I include the things that struck me, and the scripture that fits them.

Proud and vain men strut about proclaiming how special they and their cultic-following are before God, while God pleads for our repentance, humility and willingness to return to Him.

If our present form of "Zion" wasn't "prospering" then we might be more acutely aware of our sickness, sores, disease and stench. We use the measuring rod of Babylon and conclude we are among the greatest of people rather than the standard of heaven against which we are loathsome, bitter fruit.

17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked
(New Testament | Revelation 3:17)

Brother Snuffer is often very pessimistic. For this reason, he reminds me of Jeremiah who seemed to be a prophet of woe. I expect he (DS) has good reason for his pessimism. But my question is this: Do we, individually, have to be a fulfillment of that pessimism?

You see, along with the pessimism, is the promise that we can be the exception. We can turn to God, individually. We can humble ourselves. We can sincerely ask God to teach us, to open our eyes, to wake us up. Whether or not it will take a hundred or more years to build a real Zion, each of us can choose to be "Zion" in ourselves.

I suppose we may still have to live in Babylon. I really don't know if or when God would take a person out of Babylon, physically. I am still on my journey. I have never seen angels or Jesus outside of dreams, so I don't think I qualify as one who has attained Zion within myself, hence I do not know the answer to this.

Waking up is a bit painful. As God distances me from what I formerly believed was true, I find that I find it repulsive that even one soul remains deceived. I wish with all my heart that people would take the Holy Spirit for their guide, that they would cease idolizing men and organizations and look to Christ only, for their salvation.

Even though it is painful, I cannot go back. I don't want to go back. I want to continue forward until I have completely left Babylon and have found the face of Christ. And I want to continue on until I am as pure a Zion person as it is possible for me to be.

I want to encircle everyone in the love of God, open their eyes, pull them out of the traps they are unknowingly (and willingly) in, and thus stop the devil's power on this planet.

The person each of us should be working on is ourselves. We cannot change another person. We have no right to insist that anyone live their lives according to our dictates. We pray for them. We speak to them according to the whisperings of the Spirit (and we'd better make sure it is the Spirit of God; not the spirit of vanity, fear, pride, or the devil). We are, most of all, examples to them of true believers in Jesus Christ - not true believers in a man, but in Christ.

This is not to say that we hide our heads in the sand. I believe we should acknowledge the falsehoods and wrongdoing that is around us, even in the leaders, but I don't know that it is wise to dwell on them. I do believe it will be all we can do to center our energies on coming to Christ in the flesh. That should be our focus, not the behavior of others. When we have seen Him face to face, and have felt the wounds, and have been redeemed from the fall, then we can find out what else we should do.

Gathering to Zion

There seems to be a gathering of sorts going on. Some people are physically gathering, but the strongest gathering seems to be via the internet by those who are seriously searching for Christ. They seek His face. They desire the Second Comforter. They gather together via the internet to speak of Christ, to discuss the process, to use it as a springboard to go off into their own search for Christ.

I have come across several people (close to ten, by now) who have said they have seen Christ. These particular people, I have no reason to doubt. I have seen that Denver Snuffer is just an ordinary person. He really is just one of us. The lesson in God choosing him to share the way to the experience is incredible. If it can happen with him, it can happen with me. Denver is not above me. He is not below me. We are equals. We both have need of the Atonement.

The ultimate end that God has promised us is that no one will say to another, "Know ye the Lord," because everyone will know Him. There won't be any leaders telling us what is right and how we should live. There won't be any need because, like we were before we came to mortality, we will be then. We will have a personal relationship with deity. We will have no desire for sin. I live for that time. I work for that time. I pray for that time.

Denver Snuffer - A Comment I Would Make if I Could

Restored post, with comments included

Monday, September 26, 2011

No one can comment on Denver Snuffer's blog now (it got pretty crazy, so I can't blame him), but I wanted to say my piece.

Recently, there was a post by DS that said his wife surfs the net on occasion to see what people are saying about him. I got three hits that were search engine results with his name in them, so I thought I'd comment, since one of them most likely was his wife

.

I agree 100% with DS that he is unimportant except as the messenger. The thing that is important is the message. But his name is connected to the message just as much as any other messenger from God (for example, Jeremiah).

Here is my reason for writing about him: It is my experience that there are many people who consider him to be apostate because he does not preach that the current leader of the church is infallible. My own experience with his books that I've read (as well as many things on his blog), is that many of those words are the words of God. I know this, because God (via the Spirit) has told me so, strongly.

There are two levels of speaking to my spirit that I have experienced. One is the kind most people talk about: Is it of God? Is it of me? Difficult to know for sure. The other kind is where there is no doubt. I can't explain it. You have to experience it to understand it. The second form of revelation is what I experienced with these books.

I perceive that the message is vital, but if people trash the messenger (or refuse to hear out of blindness, deafness, fear, "I've got enough", etc.), they won't hear the message. And I was told that the message is vital for us to hear, that otherwise good people will suffer greatly if they continue to refuse to hear the message because they don't approve of the messenger. Thus, when I speak of DS, I am trying to help remove the barriers in people's minds so that they will listen to the message. There are a lot of people I love and care about who say, in essence, "We have enough. If God wants to tell us more he will tell us through the president of the Church. God cannot and will not speak to an ordinary person, if He intends to warn us about anything." Yet, the message is not really "more" because everything in the message is in the scriptures. By the way, I thought the same way, until God told me differently.

I do talk to people about what I've learned, using my own words. Perhaps, I will one day be given all the words to say without referring people to the books DS has written, but I've not had the experience of viewing Gethsemane, et al. Reading what DS has written about it, not only brought me to my knees, it opened up my willingness to accept the Atonement to the point that I received a major spiritual healing of the most horrible thing that had happened to me when I was a child. More recently, I received a more complete healing of that experience. Be assured, the glory for this goes to God.

So, for better or worse, I expect DS will continue to be on the web. People will continue to wonder what this strange thing in the land is, "for a wild man is come among us." 

Edit: There was a comment with a link. I want to make it a clickable link, so I am putting it here. Lecture mentioned in link below It goes directly to the recording. 

New edit:

This link was on Brother Snuffer's blog. It is from the same meeting that was so kindly shared in comment #1. It goes to a webpage with a link to the talk on it.

Elijah talk

[Note from the restoration of this post: I did not keep the link when I deleted the post, but here is a link to Denver's link of it.]

Anonymous said... I know exactly where his dear wife has been reading it is the LDS Freedom Forum. There are a few people there who judge him extremely harshly and then there people there who are very appreciative of the things Denver Snuffer writes. I hope Brother Snuffer does not let a few contentious people influence him on which insights he is willing to share.

On a more uplifting note here is an mp3 file of a lecture Brother Snuffer did last night.

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/audio/Denver_Snuffer-Elijah-10-14-2011.mp3

Keep in mind the first 10 minutes of the lecture is missing on this recording. If I find a better mp3 recording I will let you know and post it. October 15, 2011 8:27 AM 

L'Jn said... Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to make links come alive in the comments section - so to anyone interested in following it, copy the link above, paste it into a new tab or window, and push enter.

October 16, 2011 5:59 PM 

L'Jn said... Anonymous, I've edited my original post to add a clickable link to the lecture.

I can't join LDSFF because they don't accept my personal email account (they don't accept yahoo, hotmail, etc. because of spam issues), but I have read through their posts many times. I have seen what you refer to. And I see the same dichotomy in other places. For example, ldsglo.com.

October 17, 2011 11:46 AM 

L'Jn said... The link with the first ten minutes missing has the clearer sound. I'd recommend listening to the first ten minutes of the one that has it all, then listening to the other one for the rest of the fireside.

Also, I went over to LDS FF to see what they were saying. The opening comment is right on. I have not seen such vigorous debate, though I have seen such close-mindedness among those who refuse to read the Book of Mormon yet claim to know everything about it.

The answer is simple, and was pointed out on FF again and again: Read it, then judge. Read it, ask God. Read it before you say all of these bad things about it. Don't read pieces of it, read the whole thing. October 23, 2011 11:46 PM

Denver Snuffer

I think people are becoming aware of a man named Denver Snuffer (in fact, I referenced him in this blog a time or two). Some people may be wondering about him, wondering what people think of him and his books. Having read five of his books at least once, I think I probably qualify to mention a little.

I do not know him personally. I have never seen him in person, nor have I ever spoken to him. My knowledge comes solely through this books and his website. I also want to note that I am not writing this to push his books. I am writing this because I prayed, asking God what I should write about today, and this post is the answer I got (and all errors and humanness in this post are my own doing – if anything in here helps someone, it because of the power of the Spirit, not because I am a great orator of any kind).

I have seen several responses to him.

Some seem to revere him; they are his following, and they hang on every word (1), even though he has said many times that he seeks no following, that he is only a man and a very imperfect one at that. He wants no fans. He reiterates that he is not in the hierarchy of the church. He wants people to look beyond him and see Christ.

Some look to him as a man who is speaking the words Christ told him to speak, a warning that we are about to be destroyed if we don't repent, that the Book of Mormon is a warning to the members of the LDS church, not the nonmembers.  He not only warns that we aren't taking the Book of Mormon seriously, he shows us how to take it seriously: he opens up the scriptures to us.

Others view him as an apostate because of some of the things he has said about the LDS church and its leaders (for those who don't know, those leaders range from things like elders' quorum president up through the hierarchy to first presidency). Mainly, what he says is that all of these men are simply men. None of them are infallible. All of them have the potential to teach the wrong things because they are human, so it behooves us to be close to the Spirit ourselves so that we can discern when their words are of God, and when they are speaking their own opinions. We are to pray for our leaders, not condemn them. Still, there are many who view him as apostate.

So, I want to add my own opinion here, for those who might be wondering the opinion of someone who has read some of his books.

First, a scripture, a vital scripture. It shows us plainly how to judge whether something is from God or from the devil. Moroni 7:12-14 in the Book of Mormon: “Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.” That's the yardstick. That's the measuring tool. Does it bring us to God? Does it entice us to do good?

It is my opinion that if you have any love for Christ at all, the chapter in Come, Let Us Adore Him called Gethsemane will bring you to your knees. It did for me. Not only that, but it opened up my heart to Christ more than my heart had ever been. I understood the mechanics of the Atonement better, and I gained a greater appreciation of how very difficult it was for Christ to go through. The power of the Atonement did a huge cleansing and healing in me during the first time I read that chapter.

The chapters called The Crucifixion and Resurrection brought me closer to Christ. There are powerful words in there. If anyone feels like they aren't getting enough spiritually, and they are members of the  LDS church (the books presuppose an understanding of basic LDS doctrines), these books should feed your souls. This reads like a book review, I know, but like I said, the only way I know this person is through his books.

I am still reading the books. I have read some of them two going on three times. Each time, I often stop because the desire to pray is overwhelming. Often, I have an overwhelming desire to prostrate myself in prayer, to repent, to desire more understanding, to come closer to my Father in Heaven and to Jesus Christ. I have gained spiritual strength. I have been able to change faster, being more patient and kind than I was before.

The gifts of the Spirit have been with me for many years, now, so I can't really say that I have seen a jump in those gifts, but the communication between God and myself is becoming less distracted. I am accepting my trials more meekly, being less prone to fight them and be angry that they are there.

So, from my experience with studying these books and trying to implement the advice, (2) I would say this is a man who is who he says he is, who is doing what he said he was told to do by the One who is the Head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – and that we ignore him or mock him at our eternal peril.

(1) D&C 76:98-101 - And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

(2) John 7:16-17 - Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

On Calling and Election

Restored post

Thursday, August 18, 2011

I got this idea from unblogmysoul. It was mentioned there that one could possibly have one’s calling and election made sure, and not realize it. That's the idea I got there.

Joseph Smith said that once God had proven a person, proven that s/he would serve God at all costs, then that person would have his/her calling and election made sure. What I am beginning to understand is that this does not mean the person needs to have rocks in his/her pockets to keep him/her from disappearing from the earth. 1

An interesting insight comes from Nephi. He saw Christ. His calling and election were made sure. Yet read what he says in 2 Nephi 4. In verses 17 through 19, he is lamenting his wickedness, his weakness of the flesh. To have one’s calling and election made sure is not to become perfect. It is simply to prove to God (and perhaps to one’s self) that one is willing to serve God no matter the cost.

Let’s take these three things: calling and election, translation, the second comforter. They are not the same thing. They are three separate things, and they may happen years apart. They also do not necessarily happen in an LDS temple. 2

Calling and election. I knew someone who had a crisis of faith larger that s/he had ever had. This person was at a crossroads. “Shall I leave the church? Shall I stop believing in God?” This crisis of faith was so large, that it seemed like all was futile, all was false. Personal revelation, God, the church’s teachings about God and revelation. It was all a big joke. After much thinking, this person came to the conclusion that no other organization had as much truth as the LDS church. This person also came to the conclusion that the only alternative to God was the devil, and s/he would never willingly go that way. S/he decided that, even if God was all of the negative things that s/he felt at the moment, there was no one else. S/he would be on His side, no matter the cost, even if s/he ended up in hell, s/he would go there kicking and screaming, determined to hold onto God as hard as s/he could. The crisis was huge. The decision was huge. It fits the description of being willing to serve God at all costs. Yet, this person is in no way perfect, is in no way in danger of being lifted off this earth because of being too perfect. I believe that this person passed the test.

Then there’s the second comforter. I don’t really know if that should be capitalized or not. Is it really a proper noun? Or a descriptive noun?

The unblog site mentions another test before one receives the second comforter. One is more likely to recognize this for what it is. I had always thought there was only one test - to see if one would serve God at all costs. Apparently, there is another. This one is where God asks you to do something that doesn’t make sense to you. Scriptural examples would be Abraham’s test, Joseph Smith being told to take another wife (and his wife another husband), Nephi killing Laban. I can’t think of any others, but I am sure there are many examples; we may not have them written in our histories/scriptures, though.

I seriously doubt that God would tell us to kill anyone today. I actually have no idea what kind of test this would be. It seems to me that it’s another “will you do anything I command?” which, I suppose it could be argued, is a bit different from, “will you serve me at any cost?”.

Anyway, receiving the second comforter is apparently not only to see Jesus Christ, but to touch him. This is the fulfillment, the reality of what one does in the temple. The temple is the practice. Seeing Christ is the reality. There are people who have gone into the temples, and shared sacred things, things they promised God they would not share. The result of this is that God will not share anything else with them. The real thing is kept hidden from them, because they have shown God that they cannot be trusted with sacred things, hence, they have disqualified themselves from having a personal audience with Christ in this life. And they probably won’t be very comfortable being around him when they finally do get the chance to see him. They’ll want to hide, according to the scriptures. They’ll want to cease existing.

According to my studies, when one sees Christ, he offers them a gift. See an example of this in the scriptures: the twelve apostles in the old world, the twelve disciples in the new world. Solomon was offered a gift (he chose wisdom). The word “endowment” means “gift”. At this point, Christ is offering you anything you want, so I understand. Some people choose to be translated (Moses, Elijah, John, three unnamed Nephites, Alma, etc.) and some choose something else.

To be translated, is to have one’s body changed: 3 Ne 28:37-40 – “But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death; Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world. Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them. And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.”

My understanding is that, next, Christ requests that the person do something for him, some work. Having never experienced this, I do not know. It is my opinion, though, that if one chooses translation it is because one wants to continue serving God.

The unblog site connects seeing Jesus with becoming a Zion person, someone able to live in a Zion society. It seems that the DS blog says the same thing, just not as plainly. We cannot build Zion unless our hearts are changed to the point that we are able to receive the second comforter, the proper noun of which is Jesus Christ.

I cannot do this subject justice. You’ll need to go to the two websites I mention below, in footnote 2. They have references galore. They are not teaching some new and strange doctrine.

1 This has reference to a false belief among latter-day saints, that if one reaches a point of translation/guarantee of eternal life, one is automatically removed from the earth, being too perfect to stay here. Those who believe this conveniently ignore the fact that John the Beloved/Revelator stayed, and so did the three Nephite disciples. I don’t think they ignore this on purpose. I am finding out that, just like Denver Snuffer and others point out, the truth hides in plain sight.

2 If you want “proofs”, I would recommend you go to Denver Snuffer's blog and do a search for these three things. At this time, he has a list of labels on the left side that you can peruse. On the right, is a list of dates that can be clicked on (click on the little arrows), to see the title of the entries in each month. Also go to unblog my soul and do a search for these things. These two men have not only spent years researching these things, but they have some personal experiences to give credence to their words.